Career Growth Advice from Katie Kelley, Talent Development Leader | Career Tips for Women in Talent Development

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 13
Featuring Katie Kelley

Episode Title: #13 Career Podcast Featuring Katie Kelley, Talent Management Expert Who Helps Organizations Transform Their Workforce

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Katie Kelley



Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you. Encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. On To Be Bolder, you're going to hear inspiring stories of how successful women, some I know, some I just want to bring to you guys, and they're going to talk about their careers in business and tech, and they're going to tell us their stories about their passion and their journey and their challenges, and we're going to learn some of their advice along the way too. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

I am so happy to have today's guest on the show. She is Senior Vice President of Talent Development Solutions at Lehec Harrison, a global talent management firm that helps companies simplify leadership and workforce transformation. Katie Kelley is charged with establishing talent development strategy, driving sales, and managing the coaching and consulting Western regional practices for the United States. She's earned a BA in psychology at Boston College and her master's in clinical social work at Smith College. She is a high profile speaker and the author of Career Courage, a book about discovering your passion, stepping out of your comfort zone, and creating the success you want. Katie, welcome to the show. It is great to have you here today.

Katie Kelley (Guest): Thank you, Mary. Likewise.

Mary Killelea: I am so eager to get started talking to you. I have so many questions, so let's just going to dive in. Start by telling us about your career journey.

Katie Kelley: You got it. So, because of a unique experience in my own family, from 18 to 30, I was that young person who didn't look left or right. So, what I know to be true is a lot of people jump around a lot and aren't really sure in their 20s what they really want to do. I was not that kid. I, you know, from 18 years old until 30, I was really linear. So I was very fascinated by psychology. My family gave me lots of experience to practice. I’ll leave it there – I think you get the idea. And so, you know, when we worked with a family therapist, I was really struck by the power this person had to make a tremendous impact on not only our family unit, but all of us as individuals. And so it was that inspiration that set forward really my 20s. So, I studied psychology, went and got clinical social work because I really wanted to have the independent licensure to have a private practice. I moved to New York City after my master's right after 9-11 and did my three years of clinical work, you know, becoming a psychotherapist and a lock psychiatric ward. And lo and behold, I’m finishing up my clinical work doing private practice in the evenings and ready to put out my shingle and have my own private practice in Manhattan. And of course, as we, as we know how these things go, you know, you end up achieving sometimes exactly what you want and it's not at all what you want anymore. So for me at 30, I had achieved what I wanted and I couldn't have been more miserable. It was high stress, I was on a lock psychiatric ward with homicide, suicide patients, patients at a time dealing with their discharge plans, dealing.

So long story short, that was the beginning of my first major pivot. And so I started just talking to people, figuring out how can I leverage all of this unique skill set I had amassed and move into something different. So I ended up shifting into pharmaceutical sales in Manhattan and I absolutely loved it. I worked with a great company Novartis, which is one of the global leaders still today. I went from working on the psychiatric ward to carrying a bag of medicine and covering Upper East Upper West of Manhattan, either side of Central Park in Harlem. And I just really thrive, Mary. I love the freedom. I love the entrepreneurialism of the role. And that's where I fell in love with consultative selling and really leveraging my clinical skills with my love, new love of kind of driving performance in the business world.

So three years later, I then went through my next pivot major pivot, which was inspired by a position up on 145th Street, if anyone's from New York, and Harlem, her name was Dr. Myers. And she said, Katie, I just want you to know, you've become my business coach. And I said, what are you talking about? She said, Hey, these conversations, you've helped me think about cultivating my voice as a speaker, you've helped me think about having more refined bedside manner with my patients. You helped me think about ways to promote my practice as a physician in New York, there could be almost like five or six physicians on the same city block. So it was me helping her think about how to differentiate her practice. So Mary, long story short, it was that conversation that helped me spur and then into becoming a business coach. So I realized I could leverage my clinical skills of the psychotherapy, my love of business and you know, experience with driving sales.

And at that time, met my husband and we threw a dart, we were that couple who threw an art out to Portland in 2008. And packed up everything we had and drove out here. And I started my coaching business. So I ran my own business for six years. And that's where you and I met. We crossed paths and I call them my Renaissance years. I absolutely loved the freedom and the creativity. I did local TV. I started doing a lot of trainings, a lot of workshops, one on one coaching. And, long story short, ended up producing a book as the output of that experience. And that then led me into Keen, but where they were one of my clients where I was being brought in to do 360 feedback and some coaching. And that was my last major pivot. So it was then that I realized the book, which I know we're going to talk about in a little bit, just the process of amassing these interviews of people who had been successful in their own right. And the book was filled with the interviews that really gave to me and to those who I've got to share it with, you know, kind of in retrospect, what was really critical for them as they look to make a lot of pivots or junctures similar to those that I had as well. And so put in four years at Keen and got to wear a lot of hats and talent development and eventually ending up in helping cultivate a D office. And then decided it was time to go back to blending sales back into the talent development world. And I've been now at Lehecht for coming up on six months and just having a blast.

Mary Killelea: What an awesome story. And I love the woman who was who just told you something that may not have been obvious to you that helped you pivot about how you were coaching her.

Katie Kelley: Exactly.

Mary Killelea: That's incredible.

Katie Kelley: Well, and I think that's something for your listeners to think about is we get mentored and coached and advised all the time. It's just a matter of how attuned we are and how ready we are to receive it. I knew that I was kind of hitting the skids and kind of feeling like, okay, I think I'm I've kind of gotten what I need. And I met my husband and we were kind of eager to get out of New York City. It's one of our favorite places in the world. But when we were at that seven year itch mark where we were really ready to bounce out and literally go to greener pastures, get out of the concrete jungle. And so it was just this conversation with my client who had become a really good friend of mine and just she gave me it was that feedback, here's what I'm observing about you. Here's where I see your strengths and here's where if you're feeling like you're kind of hitting the wall with the journey you're at now, think about this. And so I think that's really the gold that is available in all of our relationships. It doesn't always have to be professional relationships. Really asking people who know us, what do you observe about me? Where do you think I'm really at my best? And when are you seeing me, you know, totally depleted and clearly not in my zone of genius, whatever you want to call it, not in a place where my strengths are really coming to life. And that's the good stuff. I mean, those are the kind of navigational signals that really can help all of us kind of drill down into more meaning in our journeys.

Mary Killelea: I 100% agree. And I'm very conscious of signs around me and sometimes overly conscious. I'm like, is that a sign? Is that a sign? But I think it's wonderful. And also, to your point is, be open for that feedback. And have it as not a personal…

Katie Kelley: A detractor feeling like it's a statement of something we're not.

Mary Killelea: It's yeah, feedback is growth. It's an opportunity to grow. So, if you look at it like that way, then it just changes how you hear things.

Katie Kelley: Yes.

Mary Killelea: Okay. So yes, we are going to get into your book, Career Courage. I think it is an amazing book. I've been self-quarantined and on my lunch breaks, I go out and I walk the track and I got your book on audible and I'd listened to it a couple weeks back. And then I literally went back on Amazon and I purchased it paperback because I had to have it on hand. There are so many good tips and actionable instructional steps in there. I think it is such a good tool for any person looking for a career courage and actually just evaluating where they are in life. And this is what I want to talk to you about. What motivated you to write this particular book?

Katie Kelley: You got it. You got it. So, what I always say is that my well of wisdom was so dry. I had, so I wrote it for myself first and foremost, because at that time I was, I had moved 3000 miles away to Portland. I was newly pregnant. I was starting my business. I knew next to nobody. It was really lonely. And here I was all fired up with my inspiration for my doctor in New York, Katie, you got to become a business coach. It's totally your future. My husband, I packed up a car, you know, left New York, drove up to Portland, totally new terrain for us. And I understood my vision in front of me, but I just did, I had so many humongous personal shifts happening. I just didn't have the fuel. I was starting to engage with clients and people like myself, I tended to attract women who are heading towards their first director level role. And so, and many were struggling with the same thing. And so I just needed inspiration. And so it was an organic, I didn't ever sit out to write a book. I was a regular contributor to the local morning show here in Portland. And so I would have to write out, pitch my topics, and then amass content for the interviews.

And for those of you who don't know, when you produce on live TV, you have to write the script out and get it approved by the producer at a head of time. And for those interviews, I would just start collecting people who inspired me. So, it would be everyone from like my OBGYN, who I was seeing a lot, a female OBGYN from Stanford, and my high school best friend who's now very successful producer in Hollywood, Gloria Calderon Calette. And then of course, there were men and there were tech industry, and then we went outside the US, and it just kept amassing to this database where I had about 85 interviews. And all of a sudden we realized there were some real themes that kept showing up, Mary, for those of us who were at various stages of our career all over the place with industries and backgrounds, but the overall pursuit was how do you continue to stay vital and how do you continue to stay really engaged yourself? Because when you come out of college or you have the benefit of going to graduate school, or you're in this incredible company surrounded by really energized inspiring people, well, it's, it can be really easy sometimes to figure out the career, but when for myself going 3000 miles away from everything I knew to be true and isolated, I felt like I didn't have anything to pull from. So the book was a kind of outproduct of all of that.

Mary Killelea: That's awesome. So in your book, you help readers clarify what really matters. You help them express their point of view, encourage them to build strong relationships and a robust network, advocate that they stay focused on finances, tell them they need to think like an entrepreneur and prioritize a truly fulfilling life. Can you share one of these themes that had the greatest personal impact on your journey?

Katie Kelley: Absolutely. So without a doubt, I got to chapter nine and it was around focusing on finances. And for me, Mary, this was an interview that you could have knocked me over with a feather. So it was a gentleman named Nick Sage over in London. Oh, Nick, good brother. He was with Sage one at the time. And the interview was one that really helped me realize, oh, it's time for me to make a pivot. And so what we talked about was ensuring that our relationship with money matches the deal that we strike with our source of income. So he said specifically, it's a mismatch in the deal that can create resentment, unfair reward and beliefs that someone or something else is responsible for your bank balance. Only you are responsible for that. And for me, that is one of the most powerful lessons because a lot of the book and a lot of my story is about taking stock of the values that are important to us right now. And auditing, inventorying. Is my life, is my career right now oriented to what is meaningful to me? I think this pandemic is certainly a time the world is resetting right now, right? It's a global reorganization. And so it's a really interesting time. We're talking a lot with our clients about building resilience for their workplaces. And one of the kind of guideposts we give them is it's a great time to realign to your values. There's such a sense of disorientation right now that aligning to what's important to you and focusing energy on that can be really empowering and at a time where people are feeling so unempowered and so unsure about, you know, where we're headed.

So anyways, just getting back to the finances, you know, that particular interview, and then we dedicated a whole chapter to it. For myself, my financial empowerment and my prioritization of my financial life had never been more important than at that time. My children were getting out of the preschool years and coming into elementary school. And I think we'll talk a little bit more about just my experience running a small business, but it was the realization that I was no longer comfortable with the cyclical life of being an entrepreneur and the financial implications of that. It was more important for me to have the security of a salary of a 401k. And so that was something that helped me realize, you know what, it's important for me to go in house now. Like that is going to be a decision that's going to help me sleep better at night. And so just reeling back, a hundred percent, that was the most impactful chapter for me. And it's a theme that I think resonates with a lot of men and women around some of the disconnects sometimes that we might start to notice about the lifestyle or the vision or the expectations we have or the security that we need as we evolve in life and making sure that we're aligning our financial relationship as it ties into our career decisions as a top priority.

Mary Killelea: I absolutely agree. And I think women undervalue themselves or don't set up their businesses to be profitable because they tend to do what they love. So, then they underestimate their quantitative value. And to your point about values, I think in this epidemic in the time that we're in, we are as individuals, hopefully most of us are stopping to take that time to evaluate what's important to us and how they align to our values. But I think there's a lot of companies out there right now who couldn't define their own values. And this is that opportunity, I think, and will be the shift where companies and like yours are going to become so critical to organizations who don't have the value because then you can't motivate your people because they don't know what you stand for.

Katie Kelley: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, it's an unbelievable time. I hosted a roundtable for leaders in retail in the U.S. this week, and they said, whatever you think your employee value proposition is, whatever it is in writing somewhere in a book, forget about it. It's all about how you are behaving right now for your employees, for their families, period. And the way that companies treat this epidemic as it relates to just the well-being of their employees, it's all about right now. And so it's going to be, I mean, it already is incredible. And just really interesting to see how it pans out for many organizations and leaders, how leaders are responding to this moment is just a whole new normal of expectations.

Mary Killelea: Yeah. Totally agree. So, as women, we tend to put ourselves last. Do you feel we have unique challenges in our pursuit of having a fulfilling career and ultimately having a career that was intentional by design?

Katie Kelley: Yeah, I mean, I've thought about this question. I think, look, first of all, like anything by design is a huge luxury and privilege. So, I also just want to really put that out there whenever I do interviews like this, just deeply aware of the privilege I have to make pivots and to continue to pursue a career that brings my values to life and allows me to have this fulfillment. So, I do think that's something we all need to heed and realize many don't have that privilege. I think I have just always been cut from the cloth where work and what I do for a living is part of my core identity and values. I came out of the womb driven. And so when I met my now husband, it was like, it was a conversation like right out of the gate. I don't think he really needed to hear it. I think he could feel it. But work is really important to me. I want to have children. I don't even know what that actually looks like when they come into our lives. But I want you to know that my plan is to continue to weave my work around parenthood with you. I think choosing partners in our life that are going to be in total support of that is really, really important. So, it's just something that is in my DNA and I couldn't imagine not having it weaved in, you know, in parallel to the parenthood and marriage, et cetera.

Mary Killelea: I got to ask you, because I think deep down inside me, I do want to write a book someday. So what was the book writing process like? What was the biggest learning?

Katie Kelley: It was the most incredible experience. I'm telling you, it's like having my children and writing a book. Like I always call it the third child I never expected. It was an enormously enjoyable experience. The I would say the lightness was at the beginning because it was just like such an honor and privilege to get time to interview some of these people who they for them, it was an honor to be able to be showcased and to be able to take the time to stop and really think about what were their golden nuggets throughout their career. So that was amazing. Then the process just is cerebrally is very exciting. I mean, I would put it up there with probably writing a thesis. You know, I wrote a thesis in my master's but a PhD level thesis, I think it's similar to, I could not have done it without the agent and the publisher. I mean, my agent, Michael Snell is unbelievable. He lives on the tip of Cape Cod. We've never met. And for the year leading up to turning in the final manuscript, we were on the phone every single day. So, because I wasn't intentional at the beginning saying I want to write a book, it was collecting interviews for TV, collecting interviews for my content that I was teaching around and then realizing, oh, wow, there's really something here. And then having the agent say, yeah, there's something here. And we're going to get it published. So I can't say enough about the positivity. What I will say is the time that is you need to dedicate is unbelievable. And nobody's making money in that time.

Mary Killelea: That’s a good point!

Katie Kelley: So, it's important to understand, I mean, unless you're getting this major forward with your contract, but as a first time author, there was no advance rather. So but even that would, it would be unsubstantial. So I think it's important to think about the when. And now, of course, with podcasts, this is like a smaller version of a book, right? So you could have the podcast, or you could have a blog, I don't know how relevant they are now, it's more about the video blogs. But I think anyone who's starting to collect content, and anyone who really enjoys writing and reflection would really, really enjoy it. But it's a very isolating activity. So if you're an extrovert, which I am, the experience of having an agent to partner with, and then the publisher and all the copywriters it was a really wonderful experience. And then bringing the book out into the market is very fun. I got really creative and what you know, created my own East Coast tour. And you just you have to be really into it. And at this moment in time, it totally worked out. So I would highly encourage people to think about it more. And, you know, I think there's, you can get it to start off with a smaller version of a book, but all in all, I highly recommend it.

Mary Killelea: What was the response from your tour? Did you attract more women than men?

Katie Kelley KK: Oh, yeah, interesting question. The book, it's funny, because when it when I was writing it, it was just when Lean In was published. It was really a time where the women in leadership conversation was really at like, its high point. When I went out, and so it was intentionally starting about women in leadership. But as I started to share the content in my workshops, and then when the publisher was American Management Association that has now been bought by HarperCollins, they said, Katie, this resonates, this is not about women in leadership. This is about career management, gender agnostic. And their advice was this is not just women driven. And I agree. I mean, there is many men who really resonate with it. I think there's a bias that because I'm a female author, the perception when you see a female author in business is that it's being written for women. But in this case, that's not true. So there you go.

Mary Killelea: That's interesting. Okay, cool. Alright. So let's shift a bit and talk about your specific roles and responsibilities as Senior Vice President of Talent Development Solutions. What does a typical day look like for you? And I know right now, we don't and none of us have a typical day, but...

Katie Kelley: Oh, my days are very typical right now. There are nine hours of Zoom meetings back to back. And it is unbelievably amazing and very draining. Somebody was just sharing, you know why they're draining is because you have to do all this gazing on video. And like it's different than if you were typically in a meeting where you're not just like intensely staring at one another. So, okay, so in all seriousness, what I do, so I manage up across and down just to be real simple in the bucket. So managing up, we're a sales organization. So, I'm responsible for the selling in and then we also staff the business that we sell in. So I need to manage to, you know, sales targets and all the expectations from tippy top, I need to set the strategy. So that was the most enjoyable part was coming in November doing my kind of first 60 day review and then starting to cultivate my strategy as it relates to our operations, our talent and our sales for the year ahead. There's a lot of work to do and a lot of massive transformation happening just in the talent management, you know, sector. As you were saying a little bit ago, in this moment in time, you know, what was really important two months ago is now drastically changed as far as, you know, what organizations need to do to adapt to create the leaders of today and the leaders of the future. And of course, it's all about agility. It's all about inclusive leadership strategies. It's all about getting to be a transformational mindset. So, focus on kind of managing up to that managing across to my peers. There's four of me throughout the US. So a lot of us are always trying to align what's coming down from global to the national level and then kind of making sure we're relaying all of that and kind of adapting our solutions and our strategies for our specific region. And then I have a team and so there I have a lot of management responsibilities with my consultants and my operations team in delivering our work. So yeah, that's how my days are made up.

Mary Killelea: Wow. I love it. That sounds so exciting. So, over the years, what's been the biggest career challenge that you faced?

Katie Kelley: So without a doubt, running a business was the most fun, the most humbling, and the most challenging. And I feel a real responsibility to speak the truth about it because I found that there was a lot of glamour and not total honesty regarding what it's like to truly run a small business amongst the communities I've been a part of in through the years. So of course, some people have very different experiences in mind, that's totally fine. I ran my small business for six years. And, I call them my Renaissance years. The creativity and the freedom was really quite intoxicating and very liberating. I mean, I just love that part of it. I would say, as I turn towards year four and five, and of course I just happened to be paralleling young parenthood, separate from we don't have any family near us, we moved so far away. It was a unique challenge for us. We didn't have much support at all besides people were paying to help us so which is a little bit different. So I would say, Mary, the most challenging was realizing I shared that quote a little bit earlier about reckoning with our relationship with our finances. I think when I got into the book writing process, I started to get pulled so far away from building my book of business, delivering and keeping my eye on my own revenue streams that the books just totally enveloped me.

And then I was going through my own evolution with the ahas of the interview process and the book. So I would say those were a couple really hard years. It was very difficult for me to come to an acceptance that I couldn't have my life be as filled with family and just taking care of myself and doing things I need to do to keep my energy and focus high on work by running a business as well. And I don't know if that resonates with you at all, because I know you've had a small business too, but it's just all the expectations around social media, around content creation around, and building your book of business. It's just it's 365, 24/7, nonstop. So I just felt like it was becoming really detrimental for my own state of health to get all going.

Mary Killelea: 100% can relate. I had my own business for 16 years, and it was exhausting, exhilarating and self fulfilling. But yes, it was very hard to be a driver of revenue when you did feel so much passion around like your book, for example, or working with small companies who might not be able to afford it, but you know them, you want to support them. So yeah, you make concessions that might not be profitable decisions, but at the same time, they're fulfilling. So, it's definitely a balance and a challenge.

Katie Kelley: And I have no regrets, like I really feel such a great sense of like pride and appreciation for the experience, but I don't think I'd ever go back maybe in like 20 years, I'll go back to some writing and speaking, but it'll be different, right? So I have such respect for entrepreneurs for small business owners, I mean, deep respects, because I just know how hard they are working behind the scenes, even when they're trying in their brand to make it look relaxed, they are hustling, and it's just every single day. And I think those, that's really important. And it's, it's a spirit that really, you know, is resonant for all of us. So, you know, enormous respect, definitely the most challenging part of my life at the end. And one that I just look back on and just some, I'm kind of personally glad I'm no longer there. But of course, you miss parts of it at times.

Mary Killelea: I do think that having entrepreneurial skills, and then transitioning into the corporate world, while it has its challenge, you are better equipped than most, I think, for the atmosphere of being nimble, taking risks, making decisions quickly. Those are some really good attributes that you bring into the corporate world. And I think managers need to recognize that.

Katie Kelley: Definitely. And that's why when I was in my business, and I started, you know, working more with organizations, the theme that they really were interested in, because organizations were becoming flatter and flatter, was how do you get this kind of entrepreneurial spirit going? And how can you help people think about as if their job were their own business, even if they're sitting within an organization. For me, in pharmaceuticals, I got that experience because you're really running your own business as a salesperson and then running my own business. Obviously, I really felt that. And so I would say even with this job at Lehecht, I feel like I am running my own business, but I have so much support. And so I have deep appreciation for those resources around me. But, you know, the pressure is on. I'm measured by, you know, KPIs. And so I really love working for organizations, but it's in order for me to stay really happy and excited. I love finding roles that haven't been successful in the past. And so, or that it's a brand new role. At Keen, I had three brand new roles. You know, they created them from scratch based on the skill set, unique skill set I had brought to that organization. So that's what keeps me really excited and energized and keeps me going.

Mary Killelea: That's wonderful. So in your current role now, and I know you haven't been there that long, but what is your favorite part of that right now?

Katie Kelley: I really love strategy, working on strategy. And then I love the execution through a team. I really enjoy managing a team. It's their development and their own process learning from them. I just really appreciate I, when it's not COVID, I am traveling quite a bit. So if you drop a tennis ball from Seattle down to San Diego, that's pretty much our whole market. And we sell into any enterprise along the Western Seaboard. So, you know, I'm a Southern California native. I grew up mostly in San Diego. So for me getting to travel is really fun. And I love the bird's eye view, Mary, of coming into organizations and getting the lay of the land and seeing what they're thinking about, what their priorities are, and how they want to invest in their leaders and their people. It's really fascinating after sitting within one brand for four years, having that vantage point now to literally just flying in across all verticals and all these different cities, and seeing the thought process and the priorities is really very, very interesting and just enjoyable for me.

Mary Killelea: So that makes me think about as women were taught to, you know, project ourselves and to really be confident. But I think it's something that's really innate to us is being good listeners. So you describe listening and responding to other people's how do you balance gaining the respect of those around you from a leadership role and a strategist role to being a listener and drawing out that input from them that's essential for you to be successful in what you do.

Katie Kelley: Yeah, it's a great question. So I'm in a professional services firm and I've never been in one before. And what I know now is that the majority of the people have grown up going directly, you know, being part of various professional service firms. Right. And so why they hired me, I believe, is because I have such an outsider's perspective. So, my background speaks to the specialties that are needed with sales and leadership development. But I'm coming at it and looking at it through a different lens through the business. And in my particular region, you know, there's really some challenges with some of the core KPIs that are needed to shift. And so, I listen so that I'm educated enough and yet and then I'm able to share my outsider's perspective and as a way to kind of disrupt the status quo and to break down the siloed thinking that could be playing a role in some of the stagnation that's been happening. So I think that speaks to what you were saying about that really important piece of having that entrepreneurial mindset in organizations is being able to think outside the box. And I think one of the big pieces of advice I give to people is sometimes people are feeling like, oh, I can't pivot again, or I've heard about my three massive pivots.

The most important thing about telling your story and defending, if you will, your pivots, if you feel you have to, when you think about going to interview for very different industry, which I think a lot of people are going to find themselves in right now, because some industries are just in total turmoil and others are very much thriving, is what is that common thread? And how does all of the experiences you've amassed in, you know, the various capacities you've worked in or experiences as just a human, right, whether it's travel, et cetera, how is that going to make a difference for the organization or group that you're interviewing into? And I think disruptive thinking and breaking down the silo thinking and really thinking about helping the organization grow in areas where they haven't and harness some of the talent and the mindshare of people within their organization and their consumer base, I think there's real potential there. And that's where we as individuals can think about what our value proposition is to organizations that are appealing to us as we all think about how the COVID pandemic is going to be impacting some of our career journeys.

Mary Killelea: That is amazing advice that that really is and so, so timely. Okay, last question. What would you tell your 20 year old self?

Katie Kelley: I think I get this question a lot from young people who are just not sure which way to turn. And I think, look, it's all about amassing great experiences, you're amassing stories. So employment in general is the goal. I mean, we've got to keep it basic. And I think for the most part, I did the opposite, right? Like I hyper specialized in my career for the first 10 years, and then became more of a generalist and then I've gone back to hyper specialization. I think if you can amass more general experience, so whether it's project management or account management, and as large a company as you can, because that way you'll have more exposure to more very business scenarios. If you can align yourself to organizations with leaders that resonate with you that align with you, or with products or services that align with your values. And those are kind of that's my core advice to people. I think that that will serve people really well. And I think the employment market is going to be slim, it's going to be some picking. So instead of people beating themselves up about not reaching certain goals, just really focus on just getting great experience at great organizations.

Mary Killelea: That's amazing. Well, it has been a joy talking to you. Thank you so much for being on the show. I love seeing your success over the years. I'm a huge admirer. Where can someone go get this book? Because I'm telling you, this is an awesome book.

Katie Kelley: Thank you. Well, you shared that you listen to it on audible. So that is fantastic. And then of course, the old Amazon is there. I think those are the two best places. And as far as people keeping in touch, the best place for me is LinkedIn. That's where I poke on there every day or so to interact with folks. So happy to connect with people. And thank you so much, Mary, for letting me tell my story. And thank you for all that you're doing here for friends and colleagues out there and the ether.

Mary Killelea: Well, thank you. I'm enjoying it. And I appreciate you coming on. Thank you. Have a great day.

Katie Kelley: My pleasure.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guests. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at to be bolder dot com. That's the number two little be bolder dot com.