Career Growth Advice from Karen Eber, Leadership Development Leader | Career Tips for Women in Leadership Development

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 90
Featuring Karen Eber

Episode Title: #90 Narratives that Transform: Karen Eber on Leveraging Storytelling for Career Growth

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Karen Eber



Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you. Encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So, sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, where we amplify the voices of trailblazing women striving to be bolder, women who are redefining the boundaries of success and leadership. Today I have the privilege of hosting an extraordinary guest, Karen Eber.

Karen is an accomplished author, keynote speaker, and consultant. Karen wears many hats. Perhaps the most defining is her role as CEO and chief storyteller of Eber Leadership Group. With a mission to scope curious and empathetic leaders, Karen believes the transformative power of stories. The convictions she's beautifully encapsulated in her book, The Perfect Story, how to tell stories that inform, influence, and inspire. Karen's first got into storytelling as a little girl, and from there she's been wowing folks with her tales, even shaking things up at big name companies like General Electric, Microsoft, Kraft, and Kate Spade. She's so good at what she does that places like London School of Business, MIT, and Stanford have asked her to come chat and share her know-how. Karen has had many successes in her career, like being the former head of culture, chief learning officer, and head of leadership development at General Electric and Deloitte. Karen's impact on the world of business is undeniable, and if that seriously wasn't enough, her thought leadership frequently graces the pages of renowned publications like Fast Company, Business Insider, and Thrive Global. Karen, what an honor it is to have you on the show.

Karen Eber (Guest): What a welcoming intro. Thank you. I'm so happy to be with you.

Mary Killelea: Thank you. Well, you know, I love featuring bold businesswomen, and you certainly have demonstrated that in your career. What does to be bolder mean to you?

Karen Eber: The first thing that comes to my mind is taking up space. I think that for many women, we try to fit ourselves into a box, a role, an idea, a preconceived notion, and sometimes in doing that, you know, when you're trying to fit in something, edges get trimmed and to me, being bold is just taking up as much space as you're meant to without apology or concern.

Mary Killelea: Fantastic. Walk us through your professional journey and what led you to the work you're doing today. I actually did start doing work in the field that I got my degree in, which makes my parents delighted. I got an undergraduate in psychology and a master's in instructional design and performance consulting, how you are applying psychology to business and make people better. So I went to Hewlett Packard and was working in an internal group that consulted to the company doing all sorts of different types of learning and development and moved to Deloitte where I was also doing consulting, but ended up moving inside of Deloitte consulting to the owners of the company, the principals and partners, focusing on leadership development and really stepping back and looking at the whole experience that employees have.

So, I did everything there from putting together leadership development programs to redesigning performance management and looking at what it is, what that experience is for people from when they come in to when they leave. And after Deloitte, I went to General Electric, and I was the head of culture in a business for 90,000 employees in 150 countries and really learned how to connect with people when you aren't face to face and don't have the opportunity to use some of the traditional ways that we communicate. And as I left GE, I opened my own company where I work mostly with Fortune 500 companies on how they're building their leaders, teams and culture one story at a time.

Mary Killelea: That is incredible. The responsibility that you have shared in all those various roles. What makes me curious is the studying that you did must have been a love that you had. So, talk to me about how early on you knew, like that was something you were interested in or just good at or?

Karen Eber: I think I've always been drawn to psychology related fields. I didn't want to go into counseling, but knew there was this space of how are we applying different techniques to improve performance or to create a leader that can be the one we want to follow or the type of person we want to follow. And how do you create workplaces that you can thrive in and aren't drained in? And so, you start with one question and then you realize, oh, there's all these relatives around it and it keeps expanding and expanding. And so, my curiosity always followed this. How do we create workplaces that aren't terrible, that are places that we can come into feeling more fulfilled and not depleted at the end of the day?

And there's endless things to look at when you get in there. It's not just training. It's not just the leaders. It's not just the technology. There's so many different pieces to it. And so that has always been fascinating to me where there's a lot of different ways to think and look at it. And then you add the context of the world on top of it and how that's changing. And that's a whole other fun consideration.

Mary Killelea: I was going to just say that post COVID, I can't, I mean, you must have people lined up around the corner for your services and support. There's no, I think, more significant time to have good leadership at companies to attract people who may not be willing to go back to companies and are looking at doing things more independently. So, leadership is so critical these days. What were some pivotal moments in your career that shaped your path?

Karen Eber: I'd say it's more patterns than a moment. It's recognizing that I would be given different opportunities in each of these roles at Hewlett Packard or Deloitte or GE where I was, let's say, developing a training program, but then there was an opportunity to really step back and look at, but what if this isn't just training? What if it's a broader situation? So, there was definitely good fortune or luck or whatever you want to call it, privilege. And I stepped into that and I said, you know, I don't know what the solution is, but I know I'm going to figure it out. And so I started to notice this pattern of being able to do that. And that pattern even evolved into, I was the fix it person.

So, I love to joke when you watch a parade, you watch the horses go by and the elephants go by, and then you watch the person that goes after them and scoops up what they leave behind. For a while, that was a lot of what I was called in to do, of fix these things that were going wrong. I stopped claiming that because I didn't want to just be the fixer. I wanted to come in and really be at the front end of that. How do we design things so we don't need to have it fixed down the line? How do we avoid massive transformation, but keep shaping? And so, it's not that there was one definitive moment. It was that when opportunity or luck or privilege, whatever you want to call it came, I stepped into it with the mindset of, I know I can figure this out. And that always led to other things.

Mary Killelea: Well, I think too, from what you said, it's self-awareness that you wanted to shift from being the fix it person to the front end. Let's now that I know, let's reverse engineer it and make it flawless, if you will, from the front end that. I mean, I think a lot of women realize, need to realize that they need to be intentional. Like if they see it, move themselves, position themselves.

Karen Eber: And also claim it because I would be in interviews or in conversations and I would joke on the fix it person, but all I was doing was reinforcing a brand of something I didn't want to do. Once I recognized that and I shifted the way I talked about it and where I meant my best and where I think I could help, things changed. And so, the words you use to describe yourself are how other people are going to describe you too. And you have the chance to influence that.

Mary Killelea: That is so important. What you just said, what would you say were some of the biggest challenges you faced and maybe, you know, how did you overcome those challenges?

Karen Eber: It's again, probably the same thing of these patterns of it's almost always interpersonal relationships, right? So, I, because I was the fix it, you're put on these high profile projects that have important deadlines, what feels like high stakes and all of the self-important stuff that we tell ourselves in these moments. And inevitably when you're on something like that, there is conflict, there is opposition because either in my case, I was what I would call an agitator where I was brought in intentionally to drive change. So, I don't say agitator in a negative way. I'm not the person poking you to be mean. I'm the person that's trying to ask questions to get a different discussion or to help us see something different. And so that means it's interrupting status quo. And when you do that, that creates friction and then that creates different perceptions, different ability, different mindsets. And you inevitably sometimes end up in turf wars and things that are just frustrating. And I had to learn before I would walk into a meeting to stop and say to myself, how do I want to show up today? Because if I didn't, I would get caught up in the emotions or the frustration or I hadn't slept. And then I might not be as patient as I wanted, or I might, I don't know, be sarcastic more than I wanted. And so I, to this day, will still ask myself, how do I want to show up? The more conflict, the more I ask myself that, especially when I haven't quite made sense of the conflict. I think like, how do I want to show up and how do I want other people to experience me?

Mary Killelea: That's great advice. And I think something that is important too, is not taking people's objection or resistance to change personally. And I imagine as women, we tend to feel like it's targeted at us. And so, I don't know, what advice do you have for, again, the self-talk is such a gold nugget. How have you not taken things personally or?

Karen Eber: I would love to say I haven't. I totally have. I totally have. And then you're like, and how could they say that? And you lose sleep, and you play it over in your mind. And then a week later, you realize it had nothing to do with you. A friend of mine interrupted that pattern once. And she said to me, how's that story working out for you? And I'm like, fine. I think it comes back to self-awareness of trying to catch what is the story you're telling yourself and how do you know if it's true. And a lot of times, the things that are happening have absolutely nothing to do with you, even if you're in the crosshairs.

The piece that I wish I was better at was learning to close doors softly, meaning I always feel like I stayed a beat too long in roles, on projects, and situations, and to the point where it crosses over, where it's just unhealthy for you as a person, and it takes over more of your life than you want. And so, if I could have had better insight, it would have been probably a little more graceful and a lot better for my own wellness and resilience to have closed the door softly instead of gotten to the point where I was like ready to slam it and never look back. That would be the wish if I could get that younger version of me to listen, just try closing the door softly and move on.

Mary Killelea: That's so smart. In the context of today's evolving business landscape, what skills or mindsets do you believe are crucial for young women to cultivate?

Karen Eber: Well, I think this is a great time to be shaping your career because there is more acceptance in its growing of well-being, meaning our jobs are not our worth, our jobs are not our lives, that there is no longer this enter a job in a company for your life or for a significant amount of time. You can cobble together any version of income, career, success, whatever is important to you. And that means you don't need to make sacrifices for wellness or sleep or all of those things. And if you find yourself stuck in companies that require that, there's other choices. And so, I think that thinking through what is most important to you in life and revisiting that, because it changes as you move through life and making sure that the company is giving you enough of that.

The question is always, how do I know when I need to go or I'm starting to feel burnt out? It's simple return on investment. When you have more bad days than good, it's time to think about maybe you want to close that door softly. So, I think some of the most important skills are resilience and agility and being really thoughtful of what do I need to do to set myself up for the best self-care? What do I need to sleep and exercise and where are my best working? And all of those things are important to me and design work to support that versus where I came of age and work where we fit our lives all around work and the way it was done to us and really adopted some things that I love that different people are questioning today saying, why would you do that? And I'm like, that's a really good question.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, it's beautiful to see that. I love listening to Ted talks and always feel like, you know, there's something to learn that's meaningful from those Ted talks. I listened to yours and loved it and noticed you have close to 2 million views, which is amazing. Your talk is about how your brain responds to stories. Before we get into the actual Ted talk, I'm curious, what did it mean to do an actual Ted talk for you and how did that experience change your life?

Karen Eber: It's two part. First, what it meant, people will say it's my dream to do this. And I think for many people, what they mean is it's their dream to stand on the red circle and have the attention and get a lot of views, but not necessarily like they don't have an idea to share. And that's the thing. I had an idea I really wanted to share and how I worked on it and how I thought I could bring it forward, which to me is what the purpose of the talk is. It's a very unique format and different than any other type of talk that you give. And so, the guidance is always why you and why this talk, why are you the right person to do this? I say it's in two parts because I did the talk at Purdue University. It was a TEDx the week before the world shut down with COVID and it went live on the TEDx site and it got, I think, maybe 10,000 views. And then, Ted, Big Ted saw it and put it through its whole jury process and decided they wanted to put it on Ted.com. And within, I think, two or three days, it hit a million views. And so same talk, same platform, but different experience. And so that showed me like so much of life is luck because it just had more visibility, more amplification. The talk wasn't any different. You can still actually find the talk on another name still out there on the Ted X site. When it went to Ted.com, it exploded and it changed everything.

I did end up getting a book deal because of it and publishing the perfect story and it helped amplify a different way of thinking. And so, I love getting messages from all around the world of people that connected with it and get ideas from it and are starting to think about how to use storytelling differently. And that to me is just the coolest thing that someone can find a stranger on the internet and feel like they know you from just watching a 13-minute talk.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, I know you're very humble because I watched it and I was thinking as you were telling this story how I would apply it because I work in B2B marketing and deal with this very technical content and found it so applicable, as I said. But what advice do you have for creating stories around technical products and data for people who have not yet heard your Ted talk? And I will make sure to include that in the show notes.

Karen Eber: Yeah, well, spoiler alert. One of the lines in there is data doesn't change our behavior, our emotions do. So a simple explanation of this is that as we take in information through our senses, they get stamped with emotion. So just like you smell a perfume, and it makes you think of a favorite loved one, that's because as you were having that experience, it got stamped with emotions. And so, when we're learning, we're hearing, we're listening, all of this is stored in our long-term memory. And when we go to make decisions, our brain goes and subconsciously consults all of those files to see what have we done in the past and what might we do here. And in the talk, I talk about a lot of neuroscience research that shows that our decision-making happens at the subconscious level and not at the conscious level. It's just at the point we become conscious of it, we apply logic, which is why we think we're making these logic-based decisions.

So, a lot of what I help individuals and companies do is recognize that data by itself doesn't necessarily create the understanding and meaning that we think it does. And data and story can create this understanding but connect people to the data in a way that they are going to understand it and it's going to inform their decisions. I hear a lot of, I can't tell stories, I have to tell data and it's not either or, it's an and. Before you even collect the data, you want to be thinking about, why am I collecting it? What questions am I seeking to answer? Because that becomes the start of your data story. What happens today is we collect a ream or a gig worth of data and then we open up a really cool visualization tool and look at all these super cool graphs and charts we can make and we start popping them into slides not thinking about what was the reason we were collecting this and what decisions is it informing? What are we trying to do? And so, starting with getting really clear on why you're doing stuff and using story can help make this be more meaningful.

Unfortunately, often in the business world, we think, but it's just so much easier to open up the deck of slides and just talk to a whole bunch of the data. But just because it's easy for you as the speaker doesn't mean that your audience is remembering or connecting with it. And storytelling is relevant in technical fields. You dig into the details and connect to the people there, the details. There's always something that can help bring it to life and make it meaningful.

Mary Killelea: I love storytelling because I think it's like one of those best gifts that if you can capture someone's attention and even make sense of data in like what you're saying, a human emotional way, it transcends the data and makes people buy into whatever you're trying to get them to believe or do or support. So how could women use this approach of storytelling with their career in mind?

Karen Eber: Yeah, so take that last sentence you said of it'll get someone to buy into things. I mentioned that the way you describe yourself is the way that people will describe you. And you have a lot of influence over that, whether that's describing your brand or whether that's when you're interviewing for a job. When you don't claim it, when you don't name it and claim it, someone else makes that their own assumption. They're going to fill in their own gaps of understanding of who you are. And some of that might be right and some of that might be wrong. When you are sharing the story of who you are, when you are being really intentional about where you're at your best, where you have comparable experience or different experience, you're removing the cognitive load of that person having to do all of that thinking. You are building the understanding of you and their brain.

When you're interviewing for a job, you want to be really thoughtful about that. You want to be able to highlight where you are similar, but you also want to be able to highlight where you have different experiences, where you are, if you think of in-groups and out-groups, in-groups are where we have the same values, beliefs, understanding, and we feel very similar. Out-groups are where we feel different. And in a job interview, you want to do both. You want to demonstrate your culture fit, show where you're similar and you're a member of an in-group, but you also want to be able to demonstrate you're a member of an out-group showing here's the different experiences and knowledge and what comparable difference I can add to this team that's complimentary and not competitive. And so, if you keep this idea of storytelling in my career is building the understanding of me and this person's mind, you then can start to use words and examples and phrases like I'm at my best when.

I heard this great story. I'm not able to attribute. I don't know who to attribute it to, but there was a very senior woman in an organization. She started with the company and she met with people. She would say, I just want to let you know, I'm tough. When you come to meet with me, I'm tough. You better be prepared. That's all she said. She said it maybe three, four times. She was walking in the hallway. She was behind two people talking and they were saying, Oh, I have to meet with this person in a little bit. And the one person said, Oh, you better be prepared. I heard she's tough.

Mary Killelea: That's awesome.

Karen Eber: It's that simple. We influence these things. And so the way you describe yourself, your work, where you're at your best, all of that helps shape and influence that.

Mary Killelea: That's a great example. I want to shift to another highlight of yours. Congratulations on the book. Tell us about The Perfect Story, who you wrote it for and what can people expect when they read it.

Karen Eber: My goal is to make storytelling accessible. I hear so many people that will tell stories with friends, be like, I'm not a good storyteller. I don't know how to do this. Or I don't have stories to tell, or I have to tell stories with data. And so, I want to show that there is a way to leverage the science to tell a great story. And it's not enough to tell a story. The way you tell it is going to impact the way the brain experiences it. So, I share what I call the five factory settings of the brain, which leverage new neuroscience research to help you understand what's happening in the brain, but more importantly, what to put in your stories to engage it. And so while that sounds like science class in a white lab coat, it is not at all. It is very fun and relatable. In fact, one of the factory settings is your brain is lazy. It's always looking for those moments where it can drift out, like in the meeting where you just tune out. That's your brain trying to save calories.

I give these pieces so that people can be aware of what's happening and lean into them and have all these different ingredients and a methodical approach to find ideas, tailor them to an audience, build a story, really engage the brain, how to sequence it, edit it, tell stories with data, avoid manipulation, and navigate vulnerability. And just to mix it up, at the end of each chapter, there's a fun little I call them interview vignettes with people that tell stories in different ways. So, a former creative director at Pixar, neuroscientist, video game writer, an improv comedian, the executive producer at the MoF, these people each do it so differently in their professions, but you get a couple questions and a snapshot into their world to see like, well, there's so many different things I can do and apply.

Mary Killelea: That's awesome. I'm definitely going to include a link to that as well and buy one for myself, because I like how you break it down into like, it's like someone who doesn't feel like they have the gift of storytelling. Sounds like through the practice and implementation of the tools that you give you can actually develop that skill.

Karen Eber: 100%. So it's called the perfect story playfully, because there is no such thing as a perfect story. It's not sitting on a shelf, like at the end of the grocery store where you get to buy it fully made. The last line in my TED talk is don't wait for the perfect story. Take your stories and make them perfect. And the book is intended to show you how do you follow steps. So, if you feel like you don't have this skill, I want you to add the word yet, because you just haven't learned the steps. And once you see different steps to walk through, then you get better at it and you develop your own style and it comes much more naturally.

Mary Killelea: And how did you train yourself? Obviously, introduction wise, you were a young girl who loves storytelling. Tell us about that. And then just how you saw that that was like something that brought you joy and you wanted to continue on that.

Karen Eber: I think you're alluding to a story of when I was five.

Mary Killelea: Yeah.

Karen Eber: Okay. So I have two different color eyes. I have a brown eye and a green eye. And it is my favorite thing about myself. It has always been something that I loved and I think is super cool. But about the time I got to school age, I realized not everyone thought it was as cool as I did. And I would be in a conversation, and I could notice the exact minute when someone noticed my eyes because they would be talking and I'd watch their eyes going back and forth, looking at mine like they were in a tennis match. They couldn't decide which one to look at. And I would brace myself as their words would slow and I'm like, here we go. And they would say almost always, do you know you have two different color eyes? And I usually would be like, no, do I really? Then they would usually say, I know a dog that has that. Like, thank you. What do I do with that? And this thing that I love quickly became this really awkward conversation where they're then calling other people over like, you guys see your eyes? And then you're a thing with 10 heads staring at you trying to look over here, look over here.

This thing that I loved suddenly became this thing that I dreaded. And I got a little flippant one day. And when you get these endless questions of like, what color eyes do your parents have? Do you see different colors out of each eye? And it always would get to how did that happen? Adults and children, by the way, not just children. And I said that I was born with brown eyes and I was in my bedroom coloring one night. And you have that big box of that you throw your crayons and the broken ones, the peeled ones, the perfect ones, a big box. Well, I was coloring and dinner wasn't going to be for a few more hours, but I was hungry. So, I reached in the box and I picked up a green crayon and I sniffed it and it didn't really smell like anything. And I took a nibble and it tasted pretty good. So, I ate the green crayon and I liked it. So, I ate all the green crayons in the box. And the next day I woke up and my eye was green, but I would be quiet. And people always like, look at me side-eyed, like, is she for real? I can't quite tell if she's being serious or not. Like my brain and logic tells me there's no way I choose this color because of a crayon, but I, she before like, and I would just sit there and let them suffer because they made me suffer.

Mary Killelea: Right. Right.

Karen Eber: And then eventually I would let them off the hook and say, I did not eat the crayons. It did not change my eye color, but the interaction completely changed. The energy was shifted and we would be laughing and we would actually have a moment of connection. They would usually recognize they had been asking me a bunch of silly questions, but we would have a different exchange that we wouldn't have had otherwise. And I still have people 20 odd years later, 30 odd years later, saying that they think of me when they see crayons. And so, I recognize that, you know, stories can entertain and they can inform, but they can also do this important thing of shifting energy and creating connection that can be just so important and meaningful.

Mary Killelea: That's so empowering. I love that story. What drives your passion for work and why do you love what you do?

Karen Eber: It's connecting with people, helping unlock something that they need to, that they're stuck on or that is in their way or just could make life better. You know, my goal is always to try to get people what they need to be successful and give them the runway to do it, whether that's leadership or in a culture or how to use a story to get there. And I love when people want to have that.

Mary Killelea: Who has been the biggest influence throughout your career?

Karen Eber: It's probably different people in different stages. You know, there were wonderful professors that gave me good insights or supported me. In each company, I had different mentors, but there was never one person that was all encompassing. I find different people help me in different ways. So, for writing, I have a mentor whose last name is Wisdom, which by the way, if you're going to be a mentor, you want that, right? And he would always challenge me or help me see things I hadn't thought of. And I use a coach to help me unpack the things that are hard. Or as I'm looking to grow, I look at other people. And so I find that there's different people for different things. And I learn when to call on them and how to have them challenge me.

Mary Killelea: I think it's great to hear that you, a very successful woman who's accomplished so much, has a coach who still gains insights and information from mentors. I mean, I think a lot of people see people at your success level and think you just got it. You know what I mean? And that you don't have to hone it or work at it or still see growth.

Karen Eber: No one has it figured out. The most profound moments with my coach are when she holds up a mirror to me and says things that I am saying or helps me realize something about myself that I haven't admitted or haven't recognized. This is the part that hopefully gives everyone comfort. My coach will work on me with things that I coach other people on. I can do it and see it in others and help them, but I get stuck on it myself. And so having someone that can help you navigate that or in a low moment help you think about it different or give you a clue. Right now, we're working on leave it just like I'm a dog, like let it go, leave it. And I must say that to myself 10 times a day. Like, you're right, leave it. So, it's so important because if it's just you, you're just going to be reinforcing your own patterns and we all have different things we can tweak.

Mary Killelea: That's awesome. Okay. So now it's time for a little rapid fire questions to get to know you even a little bit better. We're going to have a little fun. Waffles or pancakes?

Karen Eber: Waffles.

Mary Killelea: Comedy or drama?

Karen Eber: Comedy.

Mary Killelea: Fiction or nonfiction?

Karen Eber: Both. Fiction when I want mindless, nonfiction when I want to learn.

Mary Killelea: Okay. Cook at home or eat out?

Karen Eber: Eat out.

Mary Killelea: What's your favorite meal to eat out?

Karen Eber: Whatever once someone else is cooking. I'm not picky.

Mary Killelea: Coffee or tea?

Karen Eber: Tea.

Mary Killelea: And wine or cocktails?

Karen Eber: Yeah, I'm usually neither. I'm not really a big alcohol person. Probably cocktails more than wine.

Mary Killelea: Okay. And the last one was pasta or pizza?

Karen Eber: Pizza.

Mary Killelea: That was fun. That's the first time I've done that with a guest. So thank you for participating in that.

Karen Eber: Yeah, sure.

Mary Killelea: Finally, for those inspired by your journey, what resources or practices would you recommend they explore for personal growth?

Karen Eber: I think first draw curiosity from the world. There was a book that I read probably 10 years ago. It's by Brian Grazer. It's called I think The Curiosity Mind. So Brian Grazer is the behind the scenes partner to Ron Howard. They've collaborated together on many films. He's I guess more of a producer. But he talks about how he has made these Academy Award winning films and how he's made things happen and how he tells stories. And it's really just his creative approach to life. And so, I read that and I get so many ideas. I watch a comedian and I learn ways to structure a story that I hadn't considered. In conversation, I learn stuff. And so, if you're open to it, that ability is anywhere. More specifically, if people want tips on leadership, storytelling or culture, I have a blog with all of that free. You can check out. It's on the brain food section of my website. I use a story in each one and then I try to give you tools. Sometimes I write them for myself of something I've struggled with or am struggling with, because I know I'm not alone in this. But a lot of times it's things that I see other people that are grappling with, which so often is interpersonal dynamics and stuff like that. But curiosity.

Mary Killelea: Fantastic. Last question. What would you tell your 20 year old self?

Karen Eber: I've read a whole post on this. See, the problem is she wouldn't listen. But I when I was going through graduate school and in my first job, I somehow had the wherewithal to take notes after each project of what did I learn and what did I want to do differently going forward? And a few years ago, I found that and turned it into a post, which was really interesting. But the biggest thing I would tell her is close the door softly.

Mary Killelea: Thank you so much for being on the show. It has been fun getting to know you.

Karen Eber: Thank you for having me.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guest. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at to be bolder.com. That's the number two little b bolder.com.