Career Growth Advice from Stephanie Brown, Career Development Leader | Career Tips for Women in Career Development

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 95
Featuring Stephanie Brown, Founder of Creative Career Level Up

Episode Title: #95 The Art of Career Advancement: A Conversation with Stephanie Brown

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Stephanie Brown



Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you. Encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So, sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Hi, welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast. Today's guest is Stephanie Brown. Stephanie is the founder of Creative Career Level Up, a program that helps those in marketing, creative, and tech industries accelerate their careers and secure their next perfect role. Over the years, Stephanie has worked for big brands, including Nike and Apple, holding various roles in marketing and communications. She is the author of the popular book titled Fired, Why Losing Your Job is the Best Thing That Can Happen to You. From brand director to unemployed to dream job, Stephanie is living proof that failure is an opportunity to grow and learn. Stephanie, it is wonderful to meet you and so wonderful to have you here. Thanks for joining the show.

Stephanie Brown (Guest): Thank you so much for having me. That was a wonderful introduction. I appreciate that.

Mary Killelea: So you demonstrated being bold. Obviously, you know, you have to be bold to play and work in Nike and Apple and then go out on your own. What does to be bolder mean to you?

Stephanie Brown: Yeah, I think you've sort of alluded to it there. Like for me, to be bolder means to put yourself out of your comfort zone, even though in your head you're saying, this is crazy. We don't want to endure the discomfort and the pain of stepping outside of our comfort zone. Like it's nice and cozy here at Apple. It's really nice and cozy at Nike. Like, why don't we just stay here? There's a hidden heart where like in your heart, you sort of know it's the right thing to do to either move on or to take an opportunity or to challenge yourself. But your head is saying, no, no, this is going to be really hard. Don't do it. And I think it's really bold and really brave in many ways to step outside your comfort zone, knowing that it's going to be really uncomfortable for the foreseeable future with the hope that in the longer term, it's going to make you happier. And I think it is really bold and brave to do that.

Mary Killelea: I totally agree. And I admire you for doing that. Walk us through your career journey and just tell us about the roles that you've had and how you stood up your own company and what you offer.

Stephanie Brown: Yeah, so I'm from New Zealand originally, if you're noticing the accent that's where I'm from. And I moved to the UK like a lot of Kiwis and Australians do early in my career, in my 20s, to sort of travel and live in Europe. But I did want to stay in London and build my career there. Being from New Zealand, the opportunities are quite limited. And I really did want to take the opportunities that London had. And I turned up in London when I was 23. I had sort of my first starter job in London. And I got let go from that job after a year. And it was pretty devastating at the time. I'd never been let go from a job before. I didn't do anything offensive. It was just a mismatch. There were some changes in their business and they decided to let me go. It was really heartbreaking as a 23, 24-year-old on the other side of the world away from my family, ending up fired, essentially.

And a couple of months later, through a series of events that I don't need to go into every detail, but I got my job at Nike. And it was so remarkable to me that this 24-year-old from New Zealand who didn't know anyone. I thought roles like Nike were reserved for people that knew people and I didn't know anyone. The only people I knew were other Kiwis and they didn't know anyone either. So, I was kind of like, how do you get these jobs? And I ended up with one through a series of very lucky events. And I loved working at Nike. I thrived at Nike. It was very much my people, my passion. I love sport. American corporate culture really suits the environment that I like and I loved it there and I really did well there.

And then eight years into Nike, I left to take a chance on a smaller brand that I was headhunted for. Someone approached me about it and I thought, maybe this is the time to move on. Took a chance on that brand. They let me go on my probationary period. So, within three months of joining, they let me go. Within one week of joining, I knew it wasn't the right place for me. I knew in my heart it wasn't the right place. But I thought it's quite as normal when you start. Things aren't perfect. And when I did get let go at the end of my probationary period, it was an overwhelming sense of relief because it felt like it was the wrong place for me and I didn't think I was performing at my best.

And so I found myself back out on the market for the first time in 10 years or something at that point. And I went through a real period of growth and the growth that I went through in that time is what eventually became the business that I run now. But I went through a process of job hunting and personal growth that resulted in me getting a job at Apple. And I was at Apple for five years in the marketing team there in London. Absolutely loved it. Another great brand that I feel very lucky to have worked for, which brought me to 2019 where I did decide to leave and set up this coaching business, which was the third big chapter in my career going out on my own. And you talk about being bolder. It was scary going outside of that really nice corporate environment. Some of the people I worked with at Apple were and still are some of my best friends. And so, to walk away from that can be really scary. So yeah, that's the journey that I've been on.

Mary Killelea: There's a lot of people with the recent, I guess, downsizing or just the recession in general that are good workers and they've been out of work for quite a while. What advice do you have for them to just keep on going at it and hold your head up high and not get discouraged?

Stephanie Brown: Yeah, it's hard at the moment. It's hard anyway, job hunting. It's particularly hard at the moment given that so many people have lost their jobs at the same time. I feel very lucky that in 2014, it was essentially me on my own as opposed to mass layoffs like we've seen particularly in the tech industry. And it can be really hard. The more senior you are, those jobs don't come up very often. There's a pyramid in most companies at the top. There's a CEO and those senior leadership levels, there's not that many roles. And so when you lose a role at that level, you don't bounce back straight away. And my boss at Nike explained that to me when I was struggling after I'd left Nike to find the job at Apple that I ended up with. And she said like, Steph, last time you were job hunting, you were junior. There was tons of junior level roles and it takes a longer time.

So if you're at that senior level, I'd definitely be kind to yourself and remember that because I think it's really easy to feel like, oh, I should just bounce back and get something. And if you're at a senior level, it's harder. If you're at a junior level, it's harder for different reasons because at a junior level, there's so many more of you and you have less of a track history of working to leverage to be like, hey, I'm different from that other person. So, a lot of junior candidates can often look kind of the same. They've had a few years experience. And so that makes it harder for a different reason.

But in terms of keeping your head above water, one thing I did that was really, really helpful was I kept the structure to my day. I kept the exact same structure to my day that I did when I was working. And for me, that looked like getting up in the morning, going to the same fitness class that I always went to, which starts at 7am, which meant I got up at sort of 6am London time. And that sounds crazy when you don't have to be in the office at 9am. But for me, it was like by keeping that structure, I could kind of keep hold of my day. And I think when you've lost your job, you have lost so much control of your career and particularly when you're applying for jobs, you feel like everybody is controlling you. They didn't call you back. They didn't email you. They didn't invite you in for an interview. And you feel like everybody else has control over you. So you want to control the things you can control. The one thing that you can have control over is how you operate your day and adding a structure to it, getting up at the same time every day, time blocking your day. So you're like, I'm going to job hunt here. And then on Tuesday afternoon, I'm going to watch three hours of Netflix because I can. But I'm going to schedule it in so that I don't feel bad sitting there watching Netflix. It's scheduled into my day. And that will mentally give you so much strength because you're controlling what you can control. And you'll feel like you have a bit more control over your life.

Mary Killelea: That is such excellent advice. Really, really good advice. Why is having job clarity so important? And how do you help people get the clarity that they need?

Stephanie Brown: Yeah, so it does relate back to this experience I had after I left Nike and I went to the role that didn't work out. And I went through a big period of soul searching at that point because I was 32, I think, at the time. And I hadn't been in the job market for a long time. Nike has a wonderful process of sort of moving people through the company. So, you can have multiple roles at Nike over a period of time. And I hadn't really had to sit down and think about environments that I do well in. Why did I enjoy Nike? Why did I thrive at Nike? Why was it the right environment for me? Would it be the right environment for everyone? The answer is no. Not everybody would love working there. It's not the right environment for everyone. Would it be the right environment for me now as a 41-year-old? Probably not. I don't think I would love working there as much as I did at the time.

So, the traditional way we look at jobs and building our careers, the way most people look at it is they look at the companies, they look at the job, they look at the things that are related to the job, and they go, oh, I'd like to try that. And then they try it like I did. And then they find out what's wrong for them. But actually, if you start with yourself, if you start with, okay, who am I? What am I motivated by? What are my values? What am I looking for in this next move in my career? Different life stages dictate that you need different things. And so if you look at it through the lens of me first, and then you understand all of that and you kind of create a filter for yourself, and that filter you can put up against every opportunity that comes your way and goes, okay, is this company, is this role matching what I personally need with this next move? When you do that and you get a role that matches the filter you've built for yourself, that starts with you. 100% of the time when I work with clients, they end up in a job that they love. And that's because they've got the clarity about themselves to understand what environments they're going to do well in. And sometimes those environments are not the ones that on the surface they would have thought are going to be the right place for them. But then they go there and they're like, oh, this is amazing. And it's because it's a role that's based on who you are, not who was hiring on LinkedIn today.

Mary Killelea: So, it takes self-awareness?

Stephanie Brown: 100%. That's exactly what it is. It's self-awareness.

Mary Killelea: What encouragement do you have for the shy or introverted women on networking?

Stephanie Brown: Yeah, I'm inherently introverted. Some people are surprised by that. I have some extroverted tendencies, but I am inherently introverted. When I was going through this process back in 2014, my networking was pretty non-existent, I would say. I hadn't really networked with anyone outside of Nike ever. And I really struggled with this idea of going into a room and introducing yourself to people or contacting people cold and being like, hi, I'm looking for a job. I hated the idea of that. Absolutely hated it.

And so, I developed a process that I encourage everyone to use with your introverted or extroverted, because I think it gets better results, which is starting with people you know. Start with people you know and contact them and say, hey, this is the situation I'm in. I'm either in a job and I'm looking for my next move or in my situation, I've lost my job. And then you can say to them, hey, I'd love your advice on what I could do next. You're someone I really respect. I've worked with you before. However I know you, I'd really love your advice on what I could do next. And get them one on one, have a chat with them, and then ask them, is there anyone else that you know that you could introduce me to? And if it's someone you already know, the chances are they'll say, yeah, actually, I know this person, Jackie, what you're talking about, you'd really resonate. Let me introduce you. And so the introduction comes organically. It comes authentically, because you know these people. And whilst you might not build a network of 100 people, you'll build what we call on my program, a power team of people. People that you can actually pick up the phone to and have a conversation with and who are going to be in your corner, not someone who accepted your LinkedIn request, because that's not a network. Someone accepting your request on LinkedIn. They're not in your corner. They're someone that may or may not reply to your LinkedIn message. You want to have people whose email address you've got, whose phone number you've got, who you've had a one-on-one conversation with. That's the kind of network that will help you get the great jobs.

Mary Killelea: And isn't it so important to network while you have a job? And like we said earlier, network outside your company. I think some people get so heads down, like, oh, I got a job. I'm comfortable. I don't need to network. And then all of a sudden they're out of a job. Then there's so much additional pressure.

Stephanie Brown: Yeah, Mary, you nailed it 100%. That is exactly it. When I went through this in 2014, I started networking. I got great momentum with it. And then when I got my job at Apple, I was, I'm not going to stop this. I'm going to keep doing this. One, because I do love meeting new people and I love, you know, what you can share with them. But also because I don't think you should only be networking when you want a job. The value of networking goes well beyond having a job. It goes into relationships that you build. It goes into business. I've introduced someone that I met networking back in 2014 to one of my close friends, and they ended up starting a business together. And they always come back to me and they're like, oh, remember, we wouldn't have met if it wasn't for you. And so you can add real value to people, to people's lives and their business lives as well. And so it is silly that people only network when they want jobs, because we're in business.

There's plenty of other opportunities that come from networking. That's not just getting jobs. And if you do networking well for the long term, next time you're looking for a job, it'll be a lot easier to sort of engage your power team. If you still have a power team from last time you were doing it.

Mary Killelea: Tell us about your company and the programs that you offer. Yeah. So, the creative career level up is the main coaching program that I run. I have some other, you know, digital products on the website as well, but the coaching program I run is the main one. And it was born out of this experience I went through after I left Nike, went to this other company, lost my job. The soul searching that I did over that time before I got my role at Apple sort of has informed the structure that I take, the structure and the sort of process that I take people on. And at the heart of it is the first step is sort of understanding who you are and what you're looking for, what you're saying before about getting that total clarity. Because most people don't start with who am I, they start with what's the company. Once they have that clarity, we help them put a plan together. What is your plan? Most people are just sitting on LinkedIn firing off, you know, applications, links to people, they have no clue, they've got no thinking, no strategy behind what they're doing. They're just like aimlessly on LinkedIn. And LinkedIn is a social network at the end of the day, it will suck you in and it will waste your time, and you'll get frustrated.

So, you've got to be job hunting with a plan. There's got to be some strategy behind it. There's got to be some thinking behind it. And then the third step is actually helping you secure the job. So, teaching you how to bypass the LinkedIn process, how to go direct hiring managers, how to really pitch and sell yourself for a job, you know, negotiating salary, doing well in interviews, all those kind of like practical tactical skills that we can teach that work for all sorts of different people. We teach those in the third step. And I always say the first two steps are like art and the final steps like science. Everybody's piece of artwork that they're creating is different because we're all different stages of career, we're all looking to achieve different things. So, when I work with clients, those first two steps, the artwork looks different, because you're all trying to achieve different things. But the third step is science. And the science is the same.

We've got tactics and strategies that we teach that we are tried and tested, we know they work. And you start using them, you tweak them a little bit like a science experiment, you get you get better at them. And then eventually you secure a role. And that process is I didn't think of it like that back in 2014. But when I reflected on 2014, that was the process that I went through in terms of understanding my was putting a plan in place and then actively going after what was in my plan. And that is a process that not many people, a lot of people do the science piece, a lot of people start with applying for jobs, but they haven't done the art piece, they don't know what their piece of artwork looks like, they don't know what their plan is, they don't know where they're going. And if you don't have that, the science experiment isn't as good. The results of the science experiment isn't as good because you don't know what you're meant to be doing. And so that's why we take people on this journey with those three steps coming through the creative career level up.

Mary Killelea: So who's your ideal client? I mean, are they employed, unemployed, different levels of careers?

Stephanie Brown: Yeah, well, because that, you know, using that analogy, the piece of art looks different for everyone. I work with clients all across the board. So, I've got a gorgeous graduate, Andrea, who's just got a graduate role, which is not an easy thing to do in this market and graduating, all the way up to I've got some senior execs who are in their mid to late 40s. So I work with clients all across the board because everybody's goals and objectives are different. We build the piece of artwork together. Everybody works in sort of marketing in the creative and tech industries, which is sort of my niche and obviously, where my background is. But in terms of age and stage of career, we work with people, I work with people across the board. I think the main thing is, is that people, there's a mindset amongst them that is like, I really want to take my career to that next level. And I understand that I'll be able to achieve a certain amount if I try it on my own, but I'll be able to achieve so much more if I join not just not just working with me, we have a whole community attached to the program of people all around the world who are marketing in the creative industry, and they all help each other as well. So, it's meant to feel like you're job hunting and accelerating your career as part of a team, as opposed to doing it on your own and understanding that when you work with other people and get the support, you can achieve more than you ever will on your own.

Mary Killelea: That's awesome. Let's talk about your book Fired. Who is your book for? I assume it's not just for people who have been fired, but people who, I mean, like, I'm going to go pick it up because it just seems so interesting from the book cover and what I've read about it on Amazon so far. So, tell us about who you wrote the book for and kind of some of the overarching lessons you can learn from reading it.

Stephanie Brown: If I'm really honest, I wrote the book for myself. It was a cathartic experience of reliving what was quite a traumatic time in my life, if I'm honest. Not traumatic like someone died, but traumatic. It was really hard, and I was a little bit depressed during that time, I'm not going to lie. I really struggled. I felt really alone. Again, this is why I've built my program with the whole community around it, because I know job hunting is really tough and you can feel really alone when you're in it. And so, when I wrote the book in 2016, it was really initially for myself.

It was also because I had had a lot of people send me their friends who had lost their jobs, and I found myself sort of retelling the same stories to them and giving them the same advice. And a friend did say, like, maybe you should write it all down so that it can help other people who are going through the experience. But definitely, I've had friends read it, and I'm sure other people as well who've bought it on Amazon, but I've had friends read it that have not lost their jobs who have said, like, this is such a great way of looking at careers and looking at sort of crises that happen in our lives and how you rebuild from them and how you can reframe them and look at them as an opportunity. So, the crisis I went through obviously was losing my job, but other crises that we have in our lives, if you see them as an opportunity, you can change your mindset to see what the opportunity is in them. And even just believing that on the other side of this, there's going to be something wonderful to look forward to. It's really for anyone that's going through that.

Mary Killelea: How do you personally define success?

Stephanie Brown: Great question. It's definitely changed over the years. I'm sure for you, it probably has as well. Like, I think the things you think are successful when you're younger, they change as you get older. The first time you lose a friend young to some sort of disease, one of my best friends died of cancer in our early 30s, and it was such a shock to the system. I was like, wow, like, he's not going to be around anymore. And that was really like, it really made me rethink what it means to wake up every day and be healthy and happy and maybe have someone in your life that you love, your partner's family, whoever it is. And yeah, I think in my 20s, it was probably a lot more selfish. And then as I got older, I was like, okay, I'm going to grow up and I'm going to be able to do that. So, I think it's just a little bit more like, you know, I'm going to be able to do that. And so, it's definitely something that you can look forward to. Definitely things like that, you contemplate a lot more.

And now for me, you know, I'm in my early 40s now, and as we've discussed, I had this corporate career. I started this business mainly because I do really love what I do. I spend more time with my family. My parents are retired now, and I often will visit my parents at 10 o'clock on a Tuesday and have a coffee with them. And I just think, God, this is the best thing ever. Like, I feel so blessed. I feel so lucky. And that feels like really successful to me that I'm able to do that.

Mary Killelea: And I bet it to your mom too.

Stephanie Brown: Yeah, absolutely.

Mary Killelea: I'm in marketing too, and I get asked this question a lot, and I've kind of struggled with it myself. Do you think it's better to go broad from experience or go deep and have expertise in one thing as you're building your career?

Stephanie Brown: Yeah, it's a great question. Someone actually asked me this the other day. So, I'll give you the same answer I gave them, and I think it really depends on what you're looking for. So, I think if you want to work in big global companies, it's better to be deep. The nature of big global companies is that they have enough people working there that each function has one person looking after retail marketing, one person looking at, or 10 people looking after PR, whatever it is, that they have at least one person in each function, and therefore they do want someone who has deep functional excellence in that area. If you want to work for smaller companies, then you're going to have to have a much wider skill set than just the one marketing function.

And certainly, when I went from Nike to the company I went to, it was essentially a startup. And I didn't enjoy doing so much different stuff. I actually really like being specialized, and that was in part why I then found my way back to bigger companies again. I also think it depends on the country you're in. The person who asked me this is actually from Australia, and I said, you know, I think you'll find when you go back to Oz, or you go back to New Zealand, or smaller countries like where we're from, she is in London, this girl who asked me the question. I said, you will find that the marketing teams are smaller in smaller countries, and therefore they might have a person that looks after three different marketing functions. They just don't have a big enough marketing team for one person to be deep again. So, if you're from a smaller country where the marketing teams are going to be smaller, it's something to think about. I could never have moved back to New Zealand with my skills because the marketing teams here, they need to be able to do like 20 different things, and I would have really struggled with that. I'm kind of unemployable in New Zealand, I think. But yeah, that was my answer. And I think that kind of, it just depends on where you want to be and what makes sense for you.

Mary Killelea: What has been one of your biggest challenges going out on your own?

Stephanie Brown: I think leaving corporate world is really hard in the sense that you're so used to having, particularly if you've been in big global corporations, even when they do layoffs and things like that, you still do feel pretty secure there. You know, it's not going to be a company that goes out of business anytime soon if you're working for a big company. So, there is a real comfort with the structure that comes with companies like that, especially if you're working for a good one, one where you love your job and you wake up on Mondays and you're like, oh, I love my colleagues, I love going to work, which sounds crazy to some people, but people do have jobs like that. So, if you've had a job like that where you really enjoy what you do, the idea of like destroying all that and going out on your own can be quite scary. I think the thing that scared me the most about it was, especially now that I've been out of it for like four or five years, I can't really go back. It's like the boats have been burnt and there is no way back. I couldn't apply for a job in the tech industry now and expect to get it having not worked in the industry for four or five years. So, that's quite scary looking at the experience that you had and feeling like, oh, does that count for nothing now because I am out of the workforce.

The one thing that I thought would be challenging but wasn't is I was really scared about literally being on my own. Being in big companies and my big marketing teams, my whole career, I love being part of a team. I've never been someone who struggled with the idea of here's a marketing campaign that we did and I only played a small part of it. I love that our team produced this. I never had to be someone who was like, that's mine, that's mine. I've always been like, oh, the whole marketing team. So, I've always enjoyed being part of a team and I thought it would be really hard being on my own. But what I found very quickly is that the nature of my business, I become very close to my clients and being on that journey with them and helping them get jobs and having this really emotional roller coaster with them. I do feel like I'm not on my own in my business, which I'm so lucky that I've got such beautiful, wonderful clients all around the world. It doesn't feel as lonely as I thought it would, but I definitely know that is the nature of the business I have. It is a challenge that a lot of people find when they go out on their own. Those early days when it's just you and maybe a business partner or you and or just you, it can be quite scary and lonely.

Mary Killelea: I think today, everything that's on social media makes it look so easy to leave your security of your job and step out and then instantly make money three times, four times, five times more than you used to. What's one of the myths, if you will, from starting out on your own?

Stephanie Brown: I think what you just said, it's not like you just start on your own and the money just rolls in. I think there's a few things. Firstly, it's not for everyone working for yourself. It is also not the next step up in the world from working for other people. I think a lot of people think you work for someone else and then you move to working for yourself and that's better than working for someone else. They're not better or worse, they're just different. So don't ever feel bad that you're not working for yourself. I think sometimes social media makes it seem like until you go out on your own, you haven't really succeeded. That's BS. That's just not true at all. I know people that have been out on their own and they've gone back into the corporate world and I know people, it's not one or the other. It's just different depending on where you are, what you need.

And so that's one thing. It's not a promotion from working for other people. It certainly is not just easy to make money, although I think it's never been as easy to set up a business with a low barrier to entry. So if it is something that you really feel motivated by and you have a good why for doing it, the why has to be there. I genuinely, it sounds cheesy, but I genuinely love helping people find jobs. It really makes me happy. I get up at like five in the morning to start calls with my clients because I have clients all over the world and when my alarm goes off, I'm not like, oh God, I've got to get up. I'm like, oh, I wonder who's going to be on our call this morning. I'm so excited to hear what this person, you know, like I love it. That is what keeps you going when maybe the money isn't coming in or when it's a bit challenging or when you're having to work long hours. It can't be enough to just be like, oh, I want to make lots of money. You have to have a why that means more than just making money. And so if you have that, the barriers to entry for business have never been as low as they are. And you can get a business off the ground with a sort of minimal viable product. And you can test things. You can test things while you're still working as well. Like I did, I set my coaching business up while I was at Apple. So, you can test these things and see if they work. But if you think it's the promotion from working for someone else and you think it's going to be really easy and money's just going to come really easy, it's not at all.

And the final thing I'd say, I'm about to go on holiday in a few weeks and you never go on holiday. So, I'm going to be on holiday, but I'm going to be working the whole time. And my father had a business when I was a kid, and I saw that myself. So that wasn't a shock to me that you will never switch off ever. That wasn't a shock to me, but I think it can be a shock to some people. They're like, oh, but I'm going on holiday. So now my business stops. It's like, no, you know, if you have a small business like I do, you do have to be checking emails regularly. You do have to use, probably going to be some calls that you might need to jump on. That's okay. You know, I don't mind that. But I think some people don't realize that it is a 24 seven gig.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, no, I think that's an important reality check. Okay. So I love your TikTok. I watched a bunch. I don't know why you say you're an introvert because I was like captivated by you on camera, just giving me these snackable information. Talk about when employees are in their 20s, they should spend one to two years at a company. And I thought that was brilliant because I know friends, children who are graduated today, they just graduated with a big debt, college debt, whatever, but they're getting paid like 19 bucks an hour. And it's crazy. And you said that, you know, so I think your advice that I'd love for you to cover here for those starting out is so important for those to hear. I shared it with my daughter. I was like, okay, you got to listen to this.

Stephanie Brown: Well, I hope she found it valuable. Yeah, it's something I feel quite strong about because, you know, there's a lot of people in the comments who are like, this is terrible advice. You'll get you'll be some you'll be seen as someone who's not loyal or job hunting. I actually disagree. Like, I'm not saying jump around every six months. I get that. But the people come, particularly people coming out of university, and I'm mainly speaking to people, you know, because most of my clients are graduates. But when you come out of university, the kind of people that go to university are smart enough to do the jobs that they get when they first graduate, probably 10 years earlier. Most of them probably could have done the jobs when they were 16 before they went to university, right? So you get this first job and you're like, God, this is easy. Like, I remember my first job, I was laminating flyers and doing some new setting up meetings. I mean, I could have done that when I was a teenager, but I have a university degree. And so the learning curve on those jobs in your 20s is fast and quick, laminating some flyers and organizing meetings. I nailed that pretty quickly. And so you shouldn't feel like you have to stay in that job for two years because someone in their 50s, and that's polities people are 50.

I'm not saying it's even, but it's an old, it's a more old school mindset. Because somebody said you need to stay to show that you're loyal. People don't think like that anymore. And as long as you can articulate to future employers, like, yeah, I was in that job for a year. You know, I learned all I could. It was my first job out of uni. I very quickly learned the ropes. And then I wanted to move on to keep learning and to keep adding value for the people I worked for. Because if you sit in a job for two years and you're bored and you know how to do the job, that doesn't add value for your employer either. So when you're moving regularly, it's about the learning curve. It's about accelerating your learning curve. It's also about the salary because, they are criminal, the early salaries. And if you move regularly, you shouldn't just move for the money because I think you should move for the learning experience, but that the money will come if you're moving for the learning experience.

So I think if you do that in your 20s, the learning curve is quick. You learn tons in your 20s. And then you can leverage all that experience into jobs in your 30s, where maybe you stay a little bit longer, your life changes, maybe that you don't want to move around as much. But in your 20s, just get as much experience as you can. Ask to shadow people, ask to come to meetings that maybe you're not meant to be in, but offer to take notes or whatever. Just get yourself as much experience as you can so you can leverage it and move on.

Mary Killelea: I just think that's spot on. Hey, let's talk about writing a good resume. What tips do you have for making it impactful and eye-catching?

Stephanie Brown: Yeah, so I think with resumes, again, there's a lot of old school sort of thinking about resumes and what you should and shouldn't do. And I think the way I approach resume writing is you definitely want to show your personality. I think people worry about, people make them look too formal and too corporate. And depending on, I'll caveat that by saying depends on the industry you're in obviously, but I'm in marketing, the creative industry, and I think you have license to be a little bit more creative. And just as an example, I always say to, you used to say to people who applied for jobs at Nike, I would say, are you a runner? Have you run a marathon? Have you run a 10K? If you have, put that on your resume. Here's my marathon time. Here's my 10K time. People at Nike would goof off that. It's a running company where you'd see what you'd be like, oh, look at this guy. He's done a marathon. Wow, it's a great marathon. I wish you'd get him in and talk for me, obviously. And that's a way of putting stats like that on there. I had a guy apply for a role in sport at a football soccer club in the UK, and he put down his five all-time favorite players from that club, and they loved it. They were like, because in the interview then they had something to talk to him about. You have all the other stuff there as well, but it's just sort of like thinking about things that might appeal to the person who's reading the resume, something that's going to make you stand out.

And the other one, and the same ilk is just get rid of all the jargon. Get rid of all the corporate jargon. Get rid of all the business speak, because everybody uses the same jargon, and all of the resumes start to sound the same. And the acid test for that is, if you read anything in your resume that you think this could be cut and pasted and put in someone else's resume, and it would still make sense, then you need to make it more personal. You need to add more detail to it. You need to be more granular. You need to add more facts, stats, brands, whatever it is. But it should, every single part of your resume should not ever be able to be cut and pasted into someone else's. And if it can be, then it's just going to sound like all of the others, and you need to rewrite it.

Mary Killelea: Great advice. What advice do you have for people who are working and want to move on from the company that they are to try another company, but they're second guessing themselves and their ability to perform outside of what they're doing within their own company? Like that talk track of, I know I'm good at this, but I just don't know if I could be this good in a different industry or for a different company. That holds back a lot of people.

Stephanie Brown: 100% it does. Yeah, I agree. And it's a valid concern. I mean, I was at Nike for seven years. I remember thinking, and then I left and got fired from the job I went to. So, I remember thinking, am I even any good? Maybe I'm only good at Nike. I mean, that's a great example. I think when you're worried about something like that, the only way to stop worrying about that is to face the fear of it, get to the other side and realize one of two things. Either it's never as bad as you thought it was going to be, or the worst did happen and you got through it. And me leaving Nike and getting fired, I asked myself, well, what's the worst that happens? And I was like, well, you might get fired from the other company. And I thought, oh, there's no way that'll happen. Then it did happen.

But I'd faced that fear of leaving a company like Nike. I'd got through it. And in hindsight, a year later, I could look back and be like, well, I didn't die. I got through it and then I got my job at Apple. And so, what I'd say is that even if you leave and it doesn't work out at the next company, you can keep moving forward and you can find the place where it's right for you. It's never as scary to leave as you think it's going to be. And also, most jobs are not that unique. The company you go to, there'll be tons of things in it that will be familiar to you. And you'll be okay. You'll be okay. It'll work out. And you have to trust that it'll work out. You have to believe enough in yourself that you'll be able to figure it out, even if you get fired like I did, that you'll be able to figure out, okay, well, where do we go from here?

Mary Killelea: What can people do to accelerate a career promotion?

Stephanie Brown: I think you've got to know what the career promotion is that you're going for first. So, I think you've got to look and say, well, what is the, not just I want to be promoted, like what is it that you actually want? Is it this person's job here? Is it you want to move into another area? Is it that you just want your boss's job? Like whatever it is, you've got to know what it is in detail, not just, oh, I want to get promoted. So that's the first thing I would then go to.

If it's internally, I would then go to my boss and say, hey, this is what I'd like to achieve in the next six, eight, 12 months, whatever the time, put a time frame on it. You've got to have a time frame on it and say to them like, what can I do and how can you help me get to this? And get them to put some meat on the plan for you. Like you need to be better at this. You need to have these soft skills. We need you to have delivered a project of the size, whatever it is, get them to put some meat on it for you so that you have an actual plan with timeframes against it that you can then follow.

Whether it's your boss or whether it's someone else, I'd definitely get a mentor or a sponsor within the business. Depends on how big the business is, but if people aren't familiar with the term sponsor, it's sort of someone at a more senior level that you have a relationship with who can kind of represent you in conversations about, hey, well, we're looking to hire someone into this role and they can kind of vouch for you. Having a sponsor for me, my wonderful unofficial sponsor at Nike, a guy called Clive, I always joke to him that I did well at Nike because I rode his coattails through the company as he got promoted, which is only half true. But he was an advocate for me, and I got stuck in a role at Nike once where I was struggling to get promoted and he was on that senior leadership team and he said to people like, Steph's really good. We're just going to get her into the right role. Because he vouched for me at that senior level, he helped me get into another role and after that, I started to do really well.

So having a sponsor is great and it doesn't have to be your boss. But if your boss is that person, that's wonderful as well. But have a plan, put some meat on that plan, have a timeframe, and then if you can get yourself a sponsor, those are the things I'd be doing.

Mary Killelea: What advice do you have for women on negotiating?

Stephanie Brown: Do it. For starters, negotiate.

Mary Killelea: Mic drop.

Stephanie Brown: That's the first thing. I don't think we can complain about disproportionate salaries if we don't negotiate. I think if you're a woman who negotiates, you can complain as much as you want. But I work with a lot of clients who have never done it and I'm like, we've got to advocate for ourselves. There's a lot of things wrong with pay parity with men and I'm not saying that sort of thing. That is 100% a thing and I think it's important that that gets better. At the same time, there's things that we can do today that can improve that and negotiating salary particularly is one that I think women need to do. If you don't know how to do it, get some help. If you're scared to do it, get some help with that as well to get in the right mindset to not be scared. But I think you have to do it.

I've had young girls on my program. There's one recently, she negotiated, she was offered I think 30,000 pounds UK and she got it to 40,000 pounds from what they offered to what she took. There were some nuances in that. That's not a jump you'd usually be able to negotiate from the base. But she said to them, look, I'm bringing a lot more experience and I think you're intending to hire for this role and I'm also bringing this and I'm coming with this. They were like, yeah, actually we agree. I think they slightly changed the role and made it a little bit more senior for a bit. She got to 40,000, which is like 30% more than they initially offered. She'd never negotiated salary. She was so proud of herself and she's only 26, I think. So for me, I'm like, she's going to take that forward. Now she's never going to not negotiate salary again. And I feel so proud of her and I'm so happy that I know she'll always negotiate and always advocate for herself at that moment. And I think that's the thing, get some help with that. If you need someone to support you, get someone to support you. But you have to do it. We have to make it something that women are doing regularly and are not afraid to do.

Mary Killelea: You know, and I heard this from someone else, I forget where I heard it or was watching it, but part of it is practicing, being comfortable with it. So, it doesn't always have to be salary. It can be negotiating whether you sit here or there, like weave negotiation into all aspects of your life, just so it doesn't become as scary as you think it is in your head. What is the top skill that you would say people should focus on to have a killer career?

Stephanie Brown: I'm going to give you two. I'm going to give you a soft skill and a hard skill, because I think soft skills and hard skills are sort of different. I think soft skills is, even if you're an introvert inherently, try and be a people person as much as anything. I think business lives and dies by being able to work in teams and being able to work in teams is being a good teammate, is being able to influence people to kind of get everyone behind an idea. It's being able to work with senior leaders as well as working with people below you. So I think like all those soft skills of working with people will absolutely accelerate your career for so many different reasons. But just getting better at that, not being afraid of it, understanding what it actually means to manage up, manage down, be a good teammate. I've never worked anywhere, even small companies with small teams, where teamwork isn't a key component of business. And if you're a good teammate and you can do well in that environment, I think you'll do well in your career in business, obviously.

And I think in terms of sort of hard skills is presenting. Presentation skills, if you become a good presenter, it's so incredible. I was forced to do a lot of it when I was at high school. And then when I got into my career, I was never comfortable with it. But you do a lot of presenting at Nike. And so, from a young age at Nike was doing a lot of presenting. And most people don't want to offer to present, stand up and talk in front of people. So, if someone is needed to do that in your career, like so few people will offer that. If you're the one that says, yeah, I'll do it, you give yourself a platform, it gives you visibility in a business. So, if you're the one standing up there presenting a marketing plan that your team's worked on, you're the one that's visible. And a killer presentation, if you deliver an unbelievable presentation, people remember it. And it's just a skill that sets you apart from everyone else. Because most of the time, no one else wants to be presenting for obvious reasons.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, no, those are two great ones, for sure. What are some good marketing resources that you would recommend to other people to kind of spin up their marketing knowledge?

Stephanie Brown: Yeah, I get asked this a lot as well. I don't know that I have specific resources. I think there's a lot of sort of good people that you can follow on LinkedIn and places like that. I know Mark Ritson, he does like a program, I think it's called the mini MBA program that he does. And he does a brand marketing program as well. And I know a few people have done that and said it's really good.

But I think in terms of resources, I think human resources are the best. Like get surround yourself with as many people in your industry as possible. You know, with the creative career level up program, I really nurture the community, we've got an amazing community, and I nurture it, I spend tons of time like introducing them to each other saying, hey, you should connect with this person, speak to this person, this person's got some great knowledge. Because I want everyone that has come through as a client of mine to realize like the knowledge that you can gain when you're surrounded by other people in our industry is invaluable. And so I think human resources and surrounding yourself with people you can learn from whether it's more senior than you or more junior than you can also learn from junior people. It doesn't always have to be the CMO of a company. So, surround yourself with people in our industry, talk to them regularly, ask them what they're hearing, what's going on, what trends are you hearing? What are you guys doing over at your company? That for me is the best marketing resource you can have because you will learn it's free, you know, you don't have to pay for it. And it will just, you know, really level up your knowledge.

Mary Killelea: And you're networking the same time.

Stephanie Brown: Exactly, you’re networking at the same time. It’s a double-edged sword.

Mary Killelea: Okay, before I let you go, we're gonna have some fun with some rapid questions.

Stephanie Brown: Go for it.

Mary Killelea: All right. Waffles or pancakes?

Stephanie Brown: Pancakes, I think if they were savory, I'm not much of a sweet tooth.

Mary Killelea: Okay, comedy or drama?

Stephanie Brown: Drama.

Mary Killelea: Fiction or nonfiction?

Stephanie Brown: Nonfiction.

Mary Killelea: Cook at home or eat out?

Stephanie Brown: I think cook at home. Yeah, cook at home.

Mary Killelea: Pasta or pizza?

Stephanie Brown: Pizza, definitely pizza.

Mary Killelea: Wine or cocktail?

Stephanie Brown: Definitely wine.

Mary Killelea: Okay, so I just got to know you so much better. I love it. Thank you so much for being on the show. How can people get in touch with you?

Stephanie Brown: So you mentioned my TikTok, I post daily on TikTok. The TikTok is a recording of my side of the coaching course that I do. So I feel like there's a lot of valuable knowledge on there. Feel free to follow me over there. My handle is at Kiwi London girl, Kiwi, it's a New Zealand term. So at Kiwi London girl. And then also on LinkedIn, Stephanie Brown, career coach, I think it comes up as Stephanie Brown on LinkedIn. I post daily on LinkedIn as well. I love connecting with people on LinkedIn. It's a beautiful platform. Don't know if you use it much, but I use it daily. And it's such a, it's probably the nicest of all the social media community. People are pretty lovely and supportive on there. So, I love connecting with people on LinkedIn. So definitely come and connect with me over there as well. And my website is creativecareerlab.com. If you want to come and check out the programs that we have, our coaching program, or some of the digital products on there as well.

Mary Killelea: Fantastic. I'll include all those in the show notes. It has been really a pleasure getting to know you. Thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your career story.

Stephanie Brown: Yeah, I've loved it. This has been awesome. Thank you so much.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guests. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number two, little b bolder.com.