Career Growth Advice from Lissa Blackaby Forsterer, Growth Marketing Leader | Career Tips for Women in Growth Marketing

Mary: Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the 2B Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. 2B Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you. Encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. On 2B Bolder, you're going to hear inspiring stories of how successful women, some I know, some I just want to bring to you guys, and they're going to talk about their careers in business and tech, and they're going to tell us their stories about their passion and their journey and their challenges, and we're going to learn some of their advice along the way too. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation. Today's guest is Lissa Blackaby-Forrester. She is the VP of Agency Growth at Owen Jones and Partners. It's based in Portland, Oregon. Lissa is a seasoned marketing and digital agency business development leader that thrives on developing positive and deep relationships with Fortune 500 clients and partners, agency teams to help them grow, expand, and evolve their business. I have known Lissa for, I don't know, like 10 plus years, working through work, through kids, through different connections. Welcome Lissa to the show.

Lissa: That was an amazing intro. Thank you. Oh my God, seriously. Wow. I'm glad to be here.

Mary: Thank you. I'm very excited to have you on the show. So I looked up you, of course, on LinkedIn. I know you, you know, but I wanted to be official here. And part of your description said, hunter mentality blended with a natural high energy and emotional intelligence. And I think that suits you quite well. Can you explain that?

Lissa: Yes. Yeah. So being in sales, you know, there's, it's a unique personality blend that, that salespeople have. And there's two kind of camps salespeople fall into. There's one that is, oh, we have clients and just take care of them and work with who we have, and they're here, and that's awesome and lovely and super important in what agencies do and what my team does. The part about the hunter mentality means you're reaching out to strangers and asking to work with them. You're doing all of that new business outreach that people really don't like. Cold calling is the old term for it. And really no one's cold calling on the telephone anymore. You're doing all these sorts of things, emailing, LinkedIn messages, meeting people at networking events, that don't know you and having, and that's really hard and scary for people to do that. It's awkward. It can be tough. I love it. So, and I also love - my biggest strength, my clients and prospects is I just love people. I have a knack for building relationship and connection very quickly. And that's where that emotional intelligence kind of comes in where I'm not afraid, and I always joke, it takes like 10 to 15 emails to get coffee with one of my best clients, let alone a person who doesn't know me. I love that part of the work that I have to do on a daily basis. I thrive on it. I'm excited for the 12 emails. And then once I do that, I get them on the phone. I just have a way of getting to know people. People open up to me very quickly and easily. And so that's where that blend of combination comes in and emotional intelligence is a hot topic in our industry right now. But it just means you're in tune and aware of what others are feeling like when you're having conversations and talking with them. It's not about me, it's about them.
Mary: And I think that description really synthesizes who you are. So I love your description of that. Let's talk about your career. You started out as an account exec, and then you've moved up your way, and today you're your VP of agency growth. Tell me how you got from there to where you are today.

Lissa: I honestly started in the agency business when I was 19 years old. I went to college from Ontario, Oregon, where I grew up, I went to Arizona State. So I was like, I want to get the hell out of Eastern Oregon of a thousand people. And I was like, I want to get far away from here and go somewhere sunny. So I went to ASU. I was going to major in accounting. I love math. I love accounting. I love math. I majored in accounting. And I went there for a year, completely flunked out and was like, oh my God, my roommate was from Lynnhurst, New Jersey. And she was not coming back. I wasn't going back. She's like, come visit me this summer. So I did. And I went out there that summer and needed to find a job. And well, first of all, I went to visit her that summer for a week and I was like, oh my God, I got there at Newark Airport. We drove into Manhattan through Lincoln Tunnel. I came out of Lincoln Tunnel literally and saw the New York city skyline and was like, oh my God. And I seriously, I was, I was like, I need to stay here. So I visited for two weeks. I went back home. She was like, come on live with me and my mom. You can live and live with us and just come work. Told my parents I'm moving to Lynnhurst, New Jersey. And they were like, oh my God. And I did it. So long story short, we packed up my car, drove out there. I was a crew app working in my dad's office and in retail. Anyway, got a job, went in for my little typing test - the Employment agency is how they did it back then.

Mary: I remember that.

Lissa: And that was 1989. When you had to get a job, you went to an employment agency and they were like, okay, do a typing test or other thing. I went on three interviews on the first day and I, and on the day I had a job on Madison Avenue and I got the job as a floater slash receptionist. And that was my foray into marketing and advertising. It was a 500 person advertising agency on Madison Avenue. And I would float around to whatever department needed help. I would go to the creative department and I would type up captions for storyboards. I would go to the media department and there was no, and there was ledgers were on the old paper, 11 by 17 ledgers, and I would help add up media plans. I would help type, you know, just I would do anything. And that was how I got my foot in the door, got the taste of advertising. I had no idea what that even was, at all. I was going to go, I couldn't be an accountant. I wanted to go do math and do algebra for people. And that was how I got started. So nine months, almost a year in New York City was like, oh, this is ew, came back to Oregon, proceeded to then work my way through college for 12 years at Portland State, working full time and work at agencies as a receptionist. And then worked my way up assistant account executive and kind of worked my way up the food chain into all on the account services line. But back then, you started out as a receptionist as a female in business. That was where your first stop was back in that day. So long answer to your question of how I got started. But that's what I did. And yes, from 2000 on, I think the really, the most pivotal moment was when two agencies - and I was in 1998 living in Arizona, worked for Madden Media and then The M Group and I was in a role where The M Group in particular, a small creative design agency, the owner Gary Miller, had a partner Todd Sumney, Todd Sumney was, was our new business guy. He was like the head account guy. And this is like a 15 person, 20 person agency. I got a job there as again, kind of an assistant account executive slash coordinator, secretary type job. I got in there, within a few weeks, I was like, huh, this guy, he's the hustler. He's the guy out there hustling, getting the business. He's the guy going to all the client meetings all day long. He's the guy who's not sitting in the office all day long. And I was like, that is what I want. So what I did was, I was hired for a job of come in and help us manage some stuff and be our office person. When really I was like, okay, I'll do that. But hey, Todd, I can I just go to meetings with you? Can I just follow you around?

Mary: Nice.

Lissa: That is, that was what turned me and turned my whole career around. The second I did that. I just sponged up everything this guy did, which was everything. You're, you're a classic, like new business guy. He's like, hey, hey, hey, hey, like trying to sell cars, like, you know, used car salesman guy, but in the ad business, you had to be like that. And you know, you had to be like that. I sponged everything up from him. And I learned the hustle. I learned the spontaneity that you have to have with, with clients and with prospects, like, you're all you're dancing on your toes all day long. Like it's just a dance. I learned so much from him. And that was a huge turning point for me.

Mary: So do you think he considers himself or saw himself as a mentor to you? Or did he just see a young woman who he admired for her go getting?

Lissa: You know, the owner of the agency, Gary Miller, and then Todd said, they both know they, they saw it as something special. And they were very kind to me too. And again, this was 99 ish, 98, 99. Before I came to Opus Creative, which we'll talk about in a minute. They were very kind to me, they saw something in me that they knew was powerful. And I am forever grateful for them for allowing me to just be this, this, you know, this gal who they didn't know from Adam to come in and just, they gave me the wings to fly a little bit.

Mary: Right.

Lissa: They were like, you are, you're really good at this. And, and it was good. And I mean, they're as kind of, when I was pregnant with my first daughter, Allie, Gary Miller, the owner of the agency, he threw a, you know, him and his wife threw a baby shower for me at their home. Like that was also taught a lot about when you're working in business, like it's not just business, your coworkers, and these people are people you're living your life with. And I've had many agency owners that have been that way with me where there's a lot of personal connection, kind of ties into work-life balance topic. We're going to talk about more, but work and life are not separate anymore.

Mary: Right, no.

Lissa: They're very connected. And so, yeah, I'm forever grateful for what they allowed me to, to learn because it fueled my fire for the next 20 years.

Mary: So you mentioned Opus. So take us to the next journey or portion of the journey.

Lissa: Yeah. So the next portion of the journey is, and this is a super critical part of my career path that to your point of how I was going along, life is good, I'm happy in my job, but two things happened or maybe three things happened. So I had my first daughter, we were living in Arizona, Allie in 2000. I was working at The M Group for Gary Miller, Todd Sumney, the guys I just talked about. So I was in a happy, good place. I think I was six weeks into my maternity leave and one of our good, good close friends, Marty Jacobson, who was back in Portland, where I'm from, or was living for a long time before moving to Arizona, said, hey, and she's an amazing sales rep for a print company for 30 years. She calls me and says, hey, one of my top customers, their account person just quit and took like five employees. Like this guy just says like, he needs someone to come in and like take over a huge book of business. And she said, you would be perfect for it. We miss you. We want you back in Oregon. You need, you need to talk to him. I said, Marty, I'm like, I'm six, I'm six weeks into my maternity leave. I'm going back in two weeks. I only have an eight week leave. I can't, I can't do that. She said, yeah, you can. Yeah, you can. You'd be perfect for it. And I was like, Marty, she said, well, Marty, I had one day and you're talking with him at 6pm tonight. I said, Marty. And I said, fine. And for you, of course, I will do it. I hugely respected her. She was a woman. She's like five or six years older than me. Super amazing salesperson, but does it like I do with this huge amount of authenticity of just close client friendships and relationships. She sells a hell lot of stuff. I looked at her and go, okay, for you, yeah, I'll take the call. So I literally took the call that night and within five days we flew up. I had the interview. I walked in to the room and I'd only talked to the one owner. There was three owners. And the second owner, I walked in the room and I was like, Mark Brody. And he was like, Lissa Blackaby. I went to grade school with this guy.

Mary: Oh my gosh.

Lissa: So I went to grade school. Yeah. And so I was like, oh my God. So we had this whole weird small world thing. And then had the interview, talked. They basically made an offer for me that was too good to be true. We went back to Arizona, put our house in the market, packed up the car. I drove up in the U-Haul with my little baby as I would stop a nurse on the way. And I moved back to Portland. And that job, and because Marty did that, changed my life.
Mary: Oh yeah!

Lissa: So I move up here and move up and baby in tow and we move up. And happy as a clam, right? Year or two in, 2002, the first job bomb happened.

Mary: Oh yep.

Lissa: So those of us that are old, there was a moment in time where, okay, technology was amazing. And then the economy took a dump. And the company said, hey, we are cutting everybody's salary in half. Like either you can roll with us and stay with us. And by the way, when I walked in the door, first in the job in 2000, it was, here's your desk. Here's a list of, I think that people at Intel, who's your biggest account you need to go talk to. Off you go. And so I walked in, so two years later, so was like, okay. And that's my big thing. Back to your question before about emotional intelligence and being able to connect with people. My goal was, I was like, all right, like I just figured it out with zero guidance. But two years in, I was like, we got a good thing going. We got a lot of work going on. We were a couple million dollars. We worked with Intel. I had some Nike connections. We were, you know, business was growing. And I said, well, hey, I love what I do. And I had a second daughter at that point. So I was like, I'm a working mommy with two little girls, husband working in construction. So he's up and down because the economy is up and down and he's working or not working. I said, here's the deal. I don't want half the salary. I want to go full commission because I'm owning this book of business and it's 80% of our company revenues. It's making payroll. It's keeping the lights on. But here's what I need. I need a big leash because some days the kids have ear aches and they're up at night. And I just get to know that I can roll in and do what I want to do. But I'm going to make sure that we're selling work, that invoices are getting paid, that we have heels. Like I was, I created that for myself at that company. And it was huge because what ended up happening, we got through the job bomb and I stayed there and we kept growing the business and I ended up making more money than I've ever made my life there. And I had a lot of atonomy. I worked really hard though. I worked 60, 70, 80 hours a week, but I had the reins. I had the reins of my accounts. I had power. I had power. And that was huge. I had power and I had income.

Mary: Well, I love the way in this story, at two pivotal points, you've designed it the way you wanted it and you went after it. And so it wasn't scoped out, you carved it out the way you needed it to fit your needs. And I so admire that about you.

Lissa: Well, thank you. But honestly, I will say, no, I didn't like, you don't even know what the hell you're doing when you're in those moments in time. I look back on it and go, oh, I did that. Like I clearly was on the first, like I was able to do that. There was no playbook. No one had done it before. I was the first person at that company that ever had gotten pregnant and had a baby.

Mary: Yeah.

Lissa: My maternity leave was like, I don't know. I mean, there was no, I was just making it up. And while I was making it up with the guidance of some key people, which I know we're going to get into some mentors, but that Marty Jacobson, who I mentioned, she has been invaluable to me over my career. She too was, again, working on the full commission, super successful, has been worked to and did her thing. And she had had kids and all of this back then in the early 2000s, you're making it up. There wasn't, this was all new to business. Women who were really successful and executives and companies and in charge of things who were having kids and not going to go stay at home and not work. We were still going to work. Like I just always had that in me. Like I couldn't, it was never even a consideration for me. And that's a topic with people that is really, it's personal. And I respect whatever choice people make. For me, I love what I do. It powers me and fuels me as a woman, as a person, as a wife, as a friend, as a whatever. I just get a lot of joy out of working. And so for me, I had no choice what to figure it out. I just didn't even know.

Mary: And like you, I mean, back then there was kind of no rules or I don't know, I guess not a lot of role models. So when I had my kids, I went off and I started my own boutique agency to create the freedom and flexibility that I needed and wanted. So I totally get what you're saying. So would you say that Marty has been your biggest inspiration or, I mean, obviously she's one of them.

Lissa: Yeah. Yes. I think for sure she has from my work and my professional career, my work life. Absolutely. She has been, she was definitely the one that I looked at her and looked at her career and looked at her life and how she was doing things. And just, it spoke to me, it aligned with me. And she was the first female friend slash business associate who would give me advice, who would take the time. And like she would, when we got on the phone, and we were again, we were planning like dinners with her families, but then we'd dig into the work stuff even faster. And okay, yeah, we're going to get together and do that because our husbands were friends at the time. But we would dig into like client stuff and how strategize and like, how do we go do that? And what's happening? And oh my God, like I will call me back. What do you do? She was the first person who would share with me a lot of her secrets of how you make stuff work. And that was huge. And it still is to this day, she still is. We can get on the phone and not talk for six months or a year. And it's like, boom, we help each other. And she's open and honest. And we just know how to, we're just programmed the same way. And, and her, but that was, she was super influential. I mean, hugely influential in how I am where I'm at today, hands down. There's other people too, but she, she definitely was and still is.

Mary: And I don't know. I mean, obviously, I think you know, but you know, I see you affecting my life in that same way that Marty's affected your life. I mean, throughout the years you've been that lift me up or let's brainstorm or let's think bigger. And I so appreciate that. And so it's fun to interview today.

Lissa: Oh, thats so sweet.

Mary: So tell me.

Lissa: We all need it.

Mary: We all do. Absolutely. And that's part of the reason I'm doing this podcast is like, let's let other people hear conversations like this that they may not have access to. So what would be a typical day for you in your current role as VP of agency growth? Or is there a typical day?
Lissa: Well, yeah, never a typical day, but I definitely, what I've done is self taught myself to have some, just focus on a few key things to start my day out. My work day is always about net new business. My work day is about connecting with companies and people that I'm not currently working with. So I do have again, and I have a very big leash at the company now, but I have self-disciplined habits of in the morning, I have my coffee, my laptop, there's a good hour, hour and a half that I am doing, researching follow-up to my new business prospects. So I have a CRM, there's LinkedIn, there's other tools I use, but it is job one is what are the top 5 or 10 companies that I am nurturing right now. And I do all that outreach to follow up emails, the looking at LinkedIn, the liking of their posts, the, you know, anything to do that's connecting myself with them, job one. So I get that out of the way first thing, because as we all know, once you get to the workday, you get to the office. Cause I have a team under me that manages our existing clients. So I am coaching them, my account directors and account managers, like, how are we doing with all the existing clients? Like I'd always do those check-ins with them. What's happening? All's good. Is there any challenges, issues? What's the new stuff on the horizon? New people we can meet. I coach that part of my day for a little bit in the office, but really it's, it's, I'm all about the outreach to the new. That is my job now. And I created that job for myself four years ago. And I came to this agency, there were 18 people. I was the only account person four years later, were at 50 people. I have a team of five now and they're taking care of existing clients. And I can do the net new, business, which is that hunter and that new business stuff. But that's, that's the bulk of my day, but what happens though, the reality is clients and agencies, it goes along wonderfully and then there's issues. And so when there's issues or challenges, I am very much a part of those conversations to help solve them and help the team get beyond them. So, um, I'm on the executive leadership team at the agency and I, definitely a part of my day is always meant talking to the owner and our CFO and managing director around how are things going? Good, bad, issues, challenges, oh, team, this and that. So I allow myself the space to be super available for that because it's super important. That's just as important as my other stuff. So I kind of tell people my life is, my work life is a sandwich. The beginning of the day is me. It's like my friend is me on the couch. It's just like have a coffee candle lit, like just doing my stuff. Like it's like, it's like training for a marathon. It's just a discipline. Like do that for two hours and then, oh, go and move the people and whatever, take on whatever's happening in that moment in time during the day and be, be me and talk to people because I've had experience in every way of client up and downs. And so offer guidance, coach, and then end of the day, I end it with the same thing of like, okay, kind of like observation of what's happening with the people I'm trying to talk to and meet with, what are they doing? What's your space? Um, what's, what's, what's, do they just release a new product? Has there changes in leadership? All that kind of stuff. I observe all that and kind of that fuels my next morning follow-up and outreach because it's like, oh, CMO got fired, new CMO coming in. So I, that's how I kind of structure my day loosely, but yeah, no, no day is ever the same. But it's always at the mindset of my job is to give us new business. And that is where everything I think about revolves around.

Mary: So what has been some of your biggest challenges that you've faced either in the past or today?

Lissa: Um, I think honestly, I think the biggest challenge is a couple of things. The amount of information coming at us, just as we know, is immense. So keeping your focus is a huge challenge in the workplace. I think, um, this is a hot topic right now too, open work environments and offices where everyone's just like, it's like, okay, like that, that that has created a way where people are not communicating now because everyone went sitting openly with headphones on. So for me, a challenge I constantly have at work is like making sure my team is not only talking to each other, but talking to clients, um. Having younger employees that are coming in that don't know how to just have conversations with people, with strangers, with clients. Like that, that art is lost.

Mary: I know, I worry about that.

Lissa: I know. Oh, it's huge.

Mary: Yeah.

Lissa: Huge issue that, um, and I, you know, I'll say I'll be 50 this summer. So it's like, I'm not old, but you have people coming in that are 25, 30 years old. They never had a job. They've gone to high school and college and no, you can't work. Never had a job. We'll talk about my work history too, because I think it's super important with the future. They don't have to talk to people. They don't know how to talk on the phone and like, oh hi, how's your day? Like heating up a client call. Like for me, when you're talking to clients and prospects, it's all about them. They want to talk to, they're excited to talk to you. There's, the art of conversation has been lost and that, and it causes huge issues.
Mary: Right.

Lissa: I mean, millions of dollars in client business issues, like not just, oh, this is weird. People, it's a huge part of what I do in the agency business. When you're in sales, when you're trying to get them to pick you to go do the marketing or advertising thing, if you're awkward to work with, you're not going to get picked. And so that's, that the challenge is, so that's one level of challenge I have. I just, I've worked really hard to get us in the door with the company. And then my team is like, oh, they need grooming and guiding, which can happen. So that's one level of challenge. But I just, in sales right now, I will say the biggest challenge is, it's a noisy, noisy environment and getting your message through the clutter with digital marketing, it's tough for everybody, no matter what you're trying to sell. And that's just a thing we're all trying to figure out. Like it's not anything unique to me, but it's, it's a, it's a huge basic fact that everyone, you know, needs, is facing right now. And I, I call it like walking in an old school, like, Hey, do pick up the phone or go see somebody in person. Like you just got to figure out different ways to keep doing what you're doing to make business happen in my world.

Mary: So if I was a young kid wanting to break into the agency world, and I was pulling together a resume, would you say to spin up your communication skills, up play that or, you know?

Lissa: I would say make sure you've worked in customer service, somehow work at Starbucks, work in a restaurant, work in fast food, have work experience. I will not hire anyone who doesn't, period. Like it's ridiculous. It's like, do you have to have had a job in some way before you're 24 years old or 22 years old? Like you have to, you have to.

Mary: Like I was 15 when I started. I think I even babysitting at like 12.

Lissa: Like my dad, yeah, my dad had me filing at age six.

Mary: Yeah.

Lissa: Like seriously, it was like crazy. Or not that, but really it was like age 10. I was down there, no, in the summers working at the office filing at an insurance agency. I was typing letters. Like people need to have some work skill. And especially if you're dealing with the public in marketing and advertising, because for my, my role that I'm hiring for, which is not designers or creatives, I'm hiring for account people. They need to have people interaction skills. So work retail, the part-time job in a retail store, work at a coffee shop, Starbucks, whatever. Anything that is dealing with the public where you're dealing with spontaneity of like, I don't know, you know, you're going to have grumpy Bob come up and order a cup of coffee from you. And you're going to have to throw a smile on your face and figure out how to do that conversation. Those skills are super critical and they are not these young kids coming in that don't have any exposure to that. Or I have to show up from 10 to four, like have accountability.

Mary: Right

Lissa: It's crazy to me. It's like, come on people, you need, parents need to encourage their kids to work and have something that is, you have done something beyond just school and you're, because employers, there's no time to train people. Like there's just so much that isn't the hand holding and all that is just not what happens in real life.

Mary: There's so many lessons that come from a kid. I mean, from understanding what a paycheck and taxes are to, like you said, you know, grumpy Bob coming to the counter and understanding how I'm going to deal with him and not take that home and have it ruin my day. Totally.

Lissa: That and just, and yeah, just how to like speak to people.

Mary: Right. Simply the art of conversation. Hi, how are you? How was your weekend? Like I had to tell people to say that to clients. They're like, oh.

Mary: That's amazing.

Lissa: Oh my fucking God. Sorry, I'm so sorry.

Mary: That's okay. So, so I mean, this, this show to me is, you know, about women in tech, but to me tech is in every business in one way or another.
Lissa: Yes
Mary: So how is technology impacting your, your business and what skills or what, what would you put emphasis on?

Lissa: Well, yeah, and tech is in everything. And I think there's two levels to it. I think I know, like, as I said, I, Intel was a client of mine for years and is, and I've, and a lot of Microsoft others, like working in technology is one thing. And then there's just technology in general and how you use it to be successful. So, um, technology is not going away and how we all obviously communicate. So I think utilizing, utilizing technology and understanding how it works and how it makes businesses work is super important for people to be, um, knowledgeable about. And also it's kind of, it's a twofold question to me of, do you want to work in technology as like, uh, again, Intel or Microsoft, like I want to go help sell or market technology to people versus you need to use it. Like you have to be able to, and people say on top of technology of the common and like the best practices for communication, practices for communication. You just have to, you have to be savvy to, in marketing in general, you know, HubSpot, like account-based marketing, like you just need, people need to be very aware of how that works. They need to understand like, oh, I just searched, you know, new boots at Nordstrom's and then all of a sudden ads are coming up. Like people need to understand like, oh, there's a reason why that just happened. It's called cookies and it's called a software. Like there's just a lot of layers, I guess, of technology that in business and even like Nike is one of my main clients, like technology and how businesses sell to customers, um, is, is huge. Um, AI right now, for example, so I'll just separate Nike and Intel for two seconds. Intel is a technology company building stuff to people to go buy and help do things. That's one layer of, you have to understand what that means. But you take Nike who make shoes and apparel and their challenges with technology are completely different. So they're struggling with how do I use technology with my customers where it's not just go to Dick's Sporting Goods or Nordstrom and buy my products. I have to be innovative in what happens when a person walks into a Nike store or Dick’s Sporting Goods and the pressure they have on them right now to just make their shopping experience different using technology. Cause IE, I'm a young person, I want to walk in on my phone. I walk in, I want to shop. I want to like look and see what that does. I want to buy it online. That whole thing is changing so fast and dramatically, um, that anyone coming that's young coming into the workforce right now, being on top of those things is huge and a huge opportunity career wise of how do you solve that? So how do you go, if I'm on my iPhone, I'm like, I need some new shoes. I have some new running pants, but I don't know which one, those kids are those young people are used now want to just like, oh, I want to see what they look like on me. I want to do that on my phone. And that's the magic of how that happens. Like that world is where the future is. Like that's where everyone's looking and it's complicated and it's crazy. And I'm not an expert in it, but I just know it's where the topic of everything is going in executive business discussions around that.

Mary: Completely agree. I think that the innovation is here and happening right now and how, you know, companies are using data, taking that data to actually be more customer centric is so critical.

Lissa: Right. And I, but I do think, and I do want to, like my older daughter, Allie is a double major in Education and Math. And I, and I, and I tell her, and I tell Abby, my younger daughter too, and any, any female, young female getting into business, into the world of just work, technology is not going away. And the more you understand how technology affects any industry going to, I don't care what it is, it can be teaching, it can be anything. That is a huge, it's a huge opportunity for women right now. And, and STEM obviously has been aroundf, but just being open to understanding and learning and being an expert in, in all that is going on. It's just, it's where business is going. Like it's not more than ever. Like business is technology in so many ways. Like it just is flat out.

Mary: Women struggle with self-confidence. How can they overcome self-doubt or get their voice within the workplace?

Lissa: So my thoughts on that or advice on that is this remind yourself that no one knows what the fuck they're doing. No one knows what the hell's going on. Men, women, whatever. You need to talk yourself off the ledge and go, hey, first of all, set your landscape as that. And then, you know, I think the confidence to say any idea is an idea. Good, bad, doesn't matter. You just need to kind of in your mind, talk to yourself. Like I do a lot of self-talking before meetings or things like it's just a normal thing. Well, for me, it's a normal thing. Like you just have had to just remind yourself like we're all in this together. And again, I love, and I love, I don't want to back up a little bit. I love the people I work for, the owners of my company, the CFO, the managing director, all that. I love them. We have a lot of household, you know, healthy debate and passionate debate around things and they love me and they're supportive of me. But you just, women, I think you need to like, just, I think remind yourself just you're here and you're here for a reason. If you're in the job you're in and you've been hired in, you're there because you have the skills. You have, you've been allowed to be in this room and conversation. So therefore take advantage of it. Don't, don't talk yourself into a acquiescing of I'm scared to share something. Just, you're there in the room or you're there in that whatever conversation. Remind yourself you're there because you've earned it and you deserved it.

Mary: Right.

Lissa: And, and they want to hear from you. And I think there is that, there is that little cheerleader in our heads. We have to remember to turn on sometimes. And I do it for myself all the time. Like you're here. They want to hear what you have to say. Like it's almost detrimental to not, you know, have a voice and conversations at work at times. And, but just remember that we're all human. No one really knows what the heck they're doing really at all. We're all figuring this out. It's all a path forward and we're, and that's, whenever I kind of do that with myself or approach my team to do that, it just eases that tension of, I don't know, you know, and again, never be afraid to ask questions or two. I always hate it when I walk out, have a meeting, we wrap up and then I walk out of the room and then somewhere my team goes, oh my gosh, I don't know what blah, blah, blah means. Or I don't, why didn't you ask that? Like be human, ask questions.

Mary: Right. Show up.

Lissa: I encourage folks. Yeah. Show up, ask questions, be human, be humble, be, you know, normal. Because I, especially with Intel, nine times out of 10 in meetings, people's like, what is this? What does that acronym mean? And that thing, or they stop to ask it. No one even knows, that the guy presenting didn't even know. And I was like, oh my God, again, like no one knows what the hell they're doing. Like we're all figuring this out. Like remember that. Like everyone needs to truly remember that. It's all, it's all just new.

Mary: So we've touched on a lot. Let's talk about work-life balance. I don't think there is any such thing as work-life balance, or at least I have not been able to experience it. How would you say you deal with work-life balance or? Or. Yeah.

Lissa: So yeah, I know, I know work-life balance is such a, technology in our phones and yeah, I check my email the second I wake up at five in the morning. Like, okay, for, for me and for, I don't know, my advice people exist. Do what you want. If you want to check your email at five AM, great. If you don't, not whatever, but work-life balance to me, work and life are very connected. It just is nowadays. I think though, if I could, and I love what I do. So I, I blend the two, but I definitely have learned to, you know, put it to the side, to have time for my personal life in the evenings, weekends, whatever. I don't work like I used to when I was younger. I don't, I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't let it encroach like I used to. And I, I strongly coach my team. One of which has two young children. I used to work on vacations. I'd have our course have proposals due or have work due, and I would be standing in the middle of, you know, on a, sitting out in the dock at the lake or on vacation, taking conference calls about something. And I, you know, kids were playing with my mom or sister or whatever, and I'd be off doing work. And I look back at that and go, that was freaking horrible. Like don't do that. Work-life balance is this. Yeah, it's fine. It just does. You know what? We're in the normal work day. Do that. But when I tell people, when you go on vacation, take the vacation. I tell my team, you're going on vacation. Choose your backup. I'm your backup or whomever. You are going to go engage with your family and your friends and your children and go be mommy and go do your thing or go be dad or whatever. It's majority of females on my team. So I tell them, do not, it does not matter. This RFP proposal, whatever's happening with the work does not matter. When you're going on your one of two vacations of the year with your little children, no one's going to give a shit in five years about this conference call you just did. But those kids are going to remember that you're like half checked out during the vacation to Hawaii. So please don't do what I did. Do, engage, be present in your life right then. All this is here. You have support. You have backup. Everyone understands. It's just different nowadays. So I really, and I have for myself too, have learned to put work to the side. It doesn't matter at some point. If I'm bored and choose to go do stuff on a weekend, it's only because I'm making myself do it. No one's telling me to, but I tell my team and I don't, I want them to, we don't have to be like that anymore.

Mary: That's fantastic.

Lissa: It's different nowadays.

Mary: And I think it's just, I wish more employers would recognize that giving their employees time to disconnect is such a healthy thing for people to recharge and then come back and feel like they have something to offer rather than soul sucked because they're so exhausted.

Lissa: Yeah. I'm, Owen Jones right now, my current employer is very, very good about that. Super. It's amazing. And they've evolved themselves into that. And it's amazing. And I really tell my team, like, you just need to, it wasn't kind of allowed myself. It was hard to allow myself to, but for me too, it was hard because of your full commission and your sales back in the day. If that deal goes awry, my paycheck's affected. Like I was kind of tethered to a thing, but currently, you know, I just, it's life is short. I tell people, no, you just need to go do, go be present, do whatever. And also the work-life balance, but too, even just the way technology allows us to be connected, not just like most of my team, like we're at the office together, but really you can be wherever you need to be. And I'm a huge proponent of that. Like I am not a touch and see, be at your desk type of manager. We have to be together sometimes. It's super important to be together sometimes. And we have those regular moments, but it also, I'm like, do what you have to do. Like if you're accountable to clients and the team, that's all I care about. I really don't care where you're doing it at. And that's attitude of the owners of Owen Jones. So, which is nice as well. So, yeah, it's just work-life balance. It just keeps evolving. It keeps changing. But I will tell you that two things, one, I have employees that work really well with the looseness of that. And then there's some that hang themselves with it. Like that is too much rope and they, they, they don't get work done and they're MIA. And my team is like, where the heck is so and so they are supposed to get this thing together for the presentation tomorrow. And so there's still, anyway, it's really good for most people, but other people are still figuring it out.

Mary: So if you had to tell your 20 year old self one thing, what would it be?

Lissa: Travel more when you're young. Do the overseas. Like when you're that, whether in college or right after, like go see the world. Get out of your, and I don't care if the world, just get out of your own little environment and your bubble and go see something else and see different. The world is big. People live, the cultural changes in the US, let alone the world are so drastically different depending on where you go. So good exposure to that is one thing too. What is really fuels your fire? What is that passion you really have and go do that for six months. If you want to go, like you want to make jewelry, like go freaking do that for six months. If you want to go, I don't know, be a tour guide in a cruise ship for a while. And just cause you want to go, I don't know, go to Hawaii and bartend, do it. Do it. I just wish like be spontaneous about your, just get some of those things like experiences, like do them when you're young before you get married and have kids and get a job and do like just live life more.

Mary: That's the same exact thing I would tell myself. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. All right, so we're.

Lissa: And also, and another advice, and this is still my advice to everyone I ever meet, talk to the person next to you, just say hello, how are you on a plane, when you're waiting in line for something to say, hi, how are you?

Mary: Yeah.

Lissa: You'll never, you will be amazed as to the people you'll meet for so many reasons. So always just say hello, be kind, say hello, put a smile on your face. It's not hard. Just, yeah, be kind.

Mary: Where do you see yourself in five or 10 years or both? Oh my gosh. I always hate that question. But I do know, I actually do myself still, I mean, still working in this industry in some way, shape or form in terms of the marketing, advertising, whatever industry. I want to be in a place where personally, like I have a home where my children and their friends or if they're married by then and they have grandkids then, like, you know, like I'm like, I'm involved with my family, I have a home where the family's coming to that I am still working in the industry I'm working in, but it might be in a different way and shape or form. I want to get back to high desert climate. So Bend, Boise, somewhere like that, where I grew up and where I'm from. But it's family. It's family and work are super important to me and the family even more as my kids get a little bit older. But I want to do work. I love what I do and maybe working for, you know, my sales, I love sales and maybe it's a development director for a nonprofit, you know, they'll get money for us. Like, I'd be great if, you know, I look at that and go, I'm still doing what I love to do, which is two things, talking to people, connecting with people, and I don't mind asking for the money. So if I can use those two things in some way that allows me to be with my family and be successful, I will be happy.

Mary: That really is a gift because like public speaking, you know, sales, I think just putting
yourself out there is a gift. I don't think there are a lot of good people at that.

Lissa: It's hard because they might say no.

Mary: I know, right? That's why I don't do it.

Lissa: They might say no. I know. I know. And all they can say is no.
Mary: Yeah.

Lissa: All they can say is no, don't talk to me again, but they're not going to chop off your arm. You're okay. Like we're okay.

Mary: Okay, so we're just going to wrap it up with, I love listening to audiobooks because I have a long commute. Any good books that you're reading?

Lissa: Yes. Yes. Oh my God. Okay. Yes.

Mary: I'm writing them down.

Lissa: Never split the difference. Yeah, never split the difference. This is my one. It's by Chris Voss. He hits, and it's the tagline is negotiating as if your life depended on it. Chris Voss, go look him up. And he has a whole consulting firm right now, but Chris Voss was the lead terrorist negotiator. Yeah, terrorist negotiator for the United States. His podcast, so, and it translates to business in the sense of, and in life actually, I've used this whole tidbits in personal conversations with my significant other, as well as with kids too. It's like how, it's learning the words to use when you are negotiating. And what we're negotiating may not be obviously I'm kidnapped and you might kill me. It just doesn't be negotiating what I want. It might be a race. It might be negotiating to get your kid to clean their room. It might be negotiating where I want to go for dinner. And it is the insights I've learned from listening, and I've listened to him on audiobooks like the other podcasts like you love. I have actually a physical book as well on my nightstand. And it has been the most inspiring and educational book I've read in a long time. David Meragstad, who is my CFO, managing director gave me the book, which was so ironic because I was negotiating my contract with him at the time. And I was like, we're reading the same book. I laugh and go, we're reading the same negotiating book. And I'm trying to negotiate a bigger salary, a bigger comp plan. And we're reading the same book. Like David, he was like, oh my God, he's like, you're right. He didn't quite realize that. But I was like, dude, we're both like, we're going to go in a circle here because we're both using all the same tactics. So super funny. No, super hilarious. We totally were. And there's one of the key things. So anyway, I totally recommend it for anybody in business to read or just in life. The key phrase that I learned from this is this. Well, how do you expect me to do that? Like Mary, how do you expect me to explain who's my biggest mentor is in life? Like how uncomfortable did you just now just get when I said that to you?

Mary: Oh, totally. I like seriously I'm getting hot.

Lissa: Like how do you expect me to describe to you my biggest life-changing moment? Okay. Pause five seconds of silence. It makes everyone want to barf. I know. So there's stuff in this book that is, but he's listening to him. He has a, he's from Ohio, but he's somebody who's from New Jersey, but he's amazing to listen to. And I get their emails and everything else. So anyway, Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. Hands down. Amazing. Yeah. Former FBI top POSIT negotiator. Yeah. He's, and he's worked with Harvard. He's like, he's, he's amazing. Amazing. Really good stuff.

Mary: Awesome. So I think we're, we're going to wrap it up. Is there anything that you wanted to?
Lissa: I'm looking, well, this end with, or just any, like anything.

Mary: Yeah, this is it.

Lissa: Yeah. You know, I will just say, if I, like, because people ask me, interview a lot of young people, again, back to your point about people wanting to get into marketing or advertising and, or just business, the one thing I just want to tell, especially young women, is, you know, and what I didn't do a lot of, and I wish I would have more, is always ask a lot of questions, take every opportunity that someone gives you to meet new people or attend functions or a work thing or join me in a thing. Kind of back to that mentorship question. What has been super important to me in my career was I learned to show up. My team and my owner Rusty, he, he repeats this a lot. He was like, Lissa, he always says, show up. I said, show up. Showing up, showing up is critical to success. I mean, showing up, so we're showing up where I, how I'm doing, where I, how I practice that is if I'm going to meet with, to get some of my mentors, I mentioned Marty, there's Pam Didner, Lauren Crump, or a few others in my work world that I have regular, so I show up, I create regular conversations with them. I create them. I ask to have a phone call, a lunch, a coffee. You have to proactively, like, nurture those relationships. So I show up in the sense of I show up in a way where I want to talk with you. And when I show up, then I also always have a question or a topic that I want them to talk to me about. I want to learn something from them because they're my mentor, because they have something that I don't have, that I'm wanting to gain from them or learn from them. I think encouraging people to always figure out those that they kind of are connecting with or ask for someone. And then you have to just, just do the activities to make it happen. It's not going to passively just land in your lap. It could be a friend of your parents. It could be somebody you meet at work. It could be a client. But taking that proactive initiative to create a conversation on a regular basis is so key. And I just always encourage people to do that. Even with my own team. I have regular 30-minute check-ins once a week with my team. And we can talk about their weekend, we can talk about their kids, we might talk about a huge work thing. But if you don't create that time and show up, then it doesn't happen. So showing up, I show up to with clients. I want to see clients. I want to have a meeting scheduled, but no one knows that. I just want to be at your offices on Tuesday from, can you have coffee? Can you do lunch? Just my saying I'm going to be there for other stuff, nine times out of 10, I'll get the meeting. If I'm saying, oh, I'm going to meet you, it's one of my little tricks of like, just show up, go to industry events, go to events where the people you are wanting to meet or talk to are at, go to them, show up. You may not know anybody. You might not know what to do. It doesn't matter. Walk in the door, show up. You will always meet someone that you didn't know you were going to meet that leads to a conversation that you didn't know you were going to have around a job. And you meet potential clients. You meet someone who knows your friend, Susie, that you grew up with. Like it happens. On an airplane, if you're flying, Ialways tell people this, my God, say hello to the person next to you for God's sake. Seriously. And then put on your headphones if they are a compete dork. Like its fine. And I always tell people too, if they say, what do you do? And you're like, oh my God, this guy is creepy. Just say, I work in insurance and put your headphones on and they won't talk to you. Like you can do that. I have gotten new business on airplanes. I just said, oh, hi, how are you? Like, are you traveling for work or pleasure? Like, what do you do? Hi, I'm Lissa. What's your name? I've had conversations come out of that simple little thing that were amazing was, oh my God, I'm actually like, I'm going down to a conference. Oh, me too. Oh, I work with so and so. Oh really? Oh, like I just, it just happens. Like learn to just have a conversation, show up and learn to have a conversation. And are two key things, just be, just show up. Show up and be open.

Mary: I love that. I love it. Thank you for showing up for this.

Lissa: Yeah, anytime.

Mary: It's been so awesome having you on the show. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you. If someone wants to connect with you, where can they find you?

Lissa: LinkedIn, Lissa Blackaby-Forsterer or my email, Lissa, with two S's, L-I-S-S-A, Forsterer, F-O-R-S-T-E-R-E-R at gmail.com. I always love to meet new people and reach out and happy to, happy to connect and talk in any way.

Mary: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guest. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number two, little b, bolder.com.