Career Growth Advice from Michelle Prince, Human Resources Leader | Career Tips for Women in Human Resources

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 112
Featuring Dr. Michelle Prince

Episode Title: #113 Encore Career Options: Dr. Michelle Prince on Finding Purpose and Prosperity in Your Third Act

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Dr. Michelle Prince



Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you. Encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast. I'm Mary Killelea and we've got a great show for you today. On the show is Dr. Prince. She's the founder of MPrince Consulting, a global leadership coach, HR tech advisor, and human capital consultant. She's got 30 years of corporate HR experience and a doctorate in management and organizational leadership. She has dedicated her career to helping professionals and organizations achieve transformational growth. She's also an advocate for sustainability and empowering people to thrive. And she's here to talk about her journey and insights. Dr. Prince, thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.

Dr. Michelle Prince (Guest): Thank you, Mary. I appreciate the opportunity to be here.

Mary Killelea: Okay. So speaking of journey, tell us how you started and found M. Prince Consulting.

Dr. Michelle Prince: Sure. So, MPrince Consulting was born at the end of 2019, but the gestation period, if you will, was much longer. Really, I had been thinking about starting a consulting and coaching firm for about seven years. It was a long-term plan that I had been thinking about. I was already over 25 years of experience in HR and the human capital field. My career spanned working with people in over 20 countries, a variety of industries. And at the end of 2019, I was coming off of a three-year international assignment with a global company. And frankly, there was no senior vice president level job that was equitable for me to immediately go to.

So, I had just turned 55, and the thought of job searching felt daunting. I took a package, and it seemed like a perfect time to take the leap and leave corporate, start my own coaching and consulting. And I had already been a certified coach since 2006, earned my doctorate in organizational leadership in 2015. I felt probably had enough experience and the credentials to do something on my own, and here I am four years later.

Mary Killelea: Wow. I mean, that sounds like such a natural progression, and I admire the navigation through all of that. What motivated you to pursue a doctorate in management and organizational leadership, and how did that influence your career initially? And then I'd love to hear a little bit about, and I know I'm throwing in two questions here, but also just how you started out in HR. So, let's talk about your doctorate first and how that led, and then we'll circle back around HR.

Dr. Michelle Prince: Sure. So, there were really two things that motivated me to pursue a doctorate. First was I was coaching leaders. I was helping them be effective as they can be. I was establishing mentoring programs, and as part of my role, I was doing leadership development programs and designing and delivering those. Really had a very strong passion for this work, and I love these aspects of leadership development. I felt I was really making a difference in people's lives as well as having a business impact. So, the doctorate really exposed me to things that I would not have otherwise been exposed to, and most importantly, it really taught me strategic and critical thinking skills, learning how to use data to influence decisions. And once you develop those muscles, you really can't help but apply them to every aspect of your life.

The second inspiration was actually some professional external coaches that I had in my network, and they were encouraging me to do the same thing they did, which was get the doctorate and then pursue my own consulting. I really hadn't thought at the time that I was going to do that, but I thought I'm a lifelong learner. Doesn't hurt to have an additional credential. I already had a master's degree, so I started pursuing that, but I was also raising two kids with my husband and traveling around the world for work. So, it wasn't easy, but it was a fun challenge.

Mary Killelea: I don't know, and forgive my naiveness here, but what is a doctorate length of study?

Dr. Michelle Prince: Well, it depends on who you ask. It took me almost 10 years to complete mine, and I'm really grateful for having been given the time off that I needed because life gets in the way. So, it could be as quick as four years if you are doing these online or in the evenings like I was as a working professional. It could be as fast as two years if you're going full-time as a full-time student, but anywhere from four to six years is average. I took a little bit of time off here and there in between finishing coursework, and then it took me two and a half years to actually get my dissertation passed. So, it's not an easy challenge in any way, shape, or form.

Mary Killelea: Okay, so now let's circle back and talk about HR. When you were younger and you started your career, you chose HR as the path. What drew you to HR?

Dr. Michelle Prince: I had always thought about that business and people aspect of it. I grew up with professional parents, and so I had always thought I would get into some kind of a business or management professional. My undergraduate was in management, but I really liked organizational behavior. Then when I took some of those classes during my undergraduate, that's really when I decided to pursue HR. The career path itself has really changed a lot in terms of if people who want to get into HR today might have more opportunities, different paths than when I first started.

Mary Killelea: Well, and let's talk about that, how the landscape of the role has changed. For those that are interested, what are the paths today? Because you're right, there's so much changing in all business aspects. It's transformation in most enterprise companies or even most size organizations. What has that done to HR?

Dr. Michelle Prince: Yeah. Well, when I first started in HR, it was still called personnel. My first job was sitting at the front desk of the personnel department where people would come in and read the job postings that were hanging on the wall.

Mary Killelea: I remember that.

Dr. Michelle Prince: People would sit with a pen and paper and fill out applications. I actually, funny story, I recall the day we got our first fax machine and what an epic day that was. We had a computer, eventually, that we all had to share. So, a last change since starting just 30 short years ago. I know people who are deep experts in a particular area of HR. They've chosen to specialize in HR in certain areas, whether that be recruitment, talent acquisition, it's called today, compensation, benefits. My field ended up being more talent management. I actually ended up being a specialist in some times and a generalist in some times. My pendulum would swing back and forth and I really enjoyed it that way.

For anyone who's looking to get into HR, thinking about what type of work they like to do, because actually, HR, you can do talent acquisition and that you really need to be kind of more of like a problem solver. You get a job posting and you need to find the best person to fit that job. That's kind of problem solving. If you like numbers, calculations, analysis, you can get into the data analytics side of it. You can get into compensation, you can get into sales comp, executive comp. I like to think about the career, really any career, as a T-shape. You can go broad across the top or you can go deep as an expert.

I like to point out that for taking the time to learn the business, even as an HR professional, will help you advance in your career. Don't just stay in HR. Really think about the strategy, the vision of the leaders, how the business makes money, where are the costs, what are the margins, where are the growth opportunities, even externally, what are the competitors and risks. Get really focused on competitors and risks and get really familiar with the company itself. That will help you ask great questions. It will help you consider what impact you can have while you're in whatever rule or function you're in at that time. It's really like we used to talk like, act like an owner, act like a shareholder or an investor because when it really matters to you, it's not just a job. And then you really think differently and act differently.

Mary Killelea: That's such a wonderful overview, especially for those that are interested in HR but don't even know the different paths along that T. So that's great. So as a global leadership coach, what are some challenges that leaders face today?

Dr. Michelle Prince: I think leaders' jobs are more difficult today than ever before. Leaders have very difficult roles. They have to make decisions that affect the business, top line, bottom line, while considering the needs and impact of the people who work for them. That could be onsite, offsite, hybrid. It's just a more complicated environment today. I think also today leaders need to think about things like company reputation, social media. There's greater global competition these days. Very importantly, from a technology and tools perspective, leaders have to think about how can we advance our business through technology? How can we help people keep up with the changing skills they need? How do we embrace AI in a way that's strategic, safe, ethical? How does it help move the business forward? And of course, cybersecurity is on the minds of a lot of board members and executives to help with business continuity.

Mary Killelea: And so, you help overcome challenge these challenges for your clients, right?

Dr. Michelle Prince: So, my role as a leadership coach is to help my clients achieve whatever their full potential is. So, I don't help them make decisions about their business, but I help them prioritize. I help them think about time management, developing their own leadership skills, whether that be business acumen, data-oriented decision making. A lot of times it's around communication skills, critical thinking, strategic thinking, enhanced emotional intelligence could be something that a lot of leaders could benefit from. Sometimes it's managing stress. Sometimes it's helping them figure out how to better develop their own team. So, it's a very individualized approach and it really depends on what their challenge is.

Mary Killelea: It sounds like a very personal job. The vulnerability that you must build with your clients seems like a unique skill that you must have.

Dr. Michelle Prince: There definitely needs to be trust, open communication. I always say, look, if a leader is looking in the mirror every morning and giving themselves a thumbs up, they're probably not open to change. They're probably not thinking about what could I be doing differently or what could I be doing better? I like and prefer to work with leaders who are really trying to enhance themselves. They're already open to behavior change or modifying their approaches and willing to experiment. It's really fun, actually.

Mary Killelea: That's great. With all the layoffs happening right now, creating your book, Creating Your Encore Career, A Guide to Finding Purpose and Prosperity in Your Third Act, I don't think could come at a better time. Tell us about your book, some of the highlights of your book. I want to make sure that we hit because I looked through them and I thought, wow, these are all so relevant. Tell us about the book and let's go through some of these key points.

Dr. Michelle Prince: Sure. As part of my work as an outplacement coach, I have a portfolio of work. I do leadership coaching, HR consulting, also do outplacement coaching and HR tech advisory work. My work as an outplacement coach, really helping people who were laid off from corporate jobs figure out what they want to do next. Because I was working primarily at the executive level, many were feeling tired or burnt out, were concerned about looking for another job as they were nearing the approaching retirement age over 55. I could relate. I was in the same boat four years ago. We started talking about what they wanted to do next. That's how creating your encore career book came about.

I've walked a mile in their shoes, and I know that I designed my own encore career, didn't know it at the time, but by creating the coaching and consulting that I wanted to do and that I find very meaningful, it really laid the groundwork. Because an encore career is the type of work you choose to do because it's purposeful or meaningful to you, aligns with your personal values and hopefully contributes to society in some way. It's designed to provide you with flexibility so that you maybe, it's more commonly known as semi-retirement. Maybe you want to work a little bit, but you also want to have some flexibility. It might be something that's totally new to you or you may already know how to do it. The most important thing is that money is not the typical primary driver of an encore career like your primary career typically is. It's really about supplementing any retirement savings you have.

But sadly, most people, especially in the US, do not have enough retirement savings based on the longevity and the expected lifespan has increased. Also, just the volatility of the stock market and people's 401k is taking a big hit several times over the last 10 years. If you're over 55, you just don't have as much time to build that back up. That's how it got started. We started talking about designing, what would you really like to do? It could be freelancing; it could be consulting. The onset of gig work and gig platforms that didn't even exist five years ago really enables people to do this kind of flex work. Many, many companies are incorporating flex workers now into their talent strategy. Really, there's a chance to start your own business if you want to. Again, these are available now, maybe more so than they were even five years ago.

Mary Killelea: I totally agree. I love that they exist today. Something that we don't talk about too much on this show because I think the audience tends to sway a little younger, but at the same time, I think I do have a broad audience and potentially some older women. Let's talk about ageism.

Dr. Michelle Prince: Yeah, it's real.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, I was just going to say thank you. Can you validate it? Can you explain it? Can you give any strategies for addressing it?

Dr. Michelle Prince: It's both a real thing that exists because stereotypes and assumptions about older workers, things like they're not as technologically savvy. They don't want to learn new things. The reality of it is the older workers or let's say workers of my generation tend to have a stronger work ethic than some younger workers. The reality of it is too that if you create a brand, this is how I talk about it in the book, create your brand and demonstrate your knowledge, your ability to pick up new technology, your eagerness to learn by demonstrating that through the conversations that you're having, the way you're interviewing.

I help people during the coaching really figure out how to portray their brand and put aside people's biases or stereotypes about ageism. It definitely is something that as an older worker, 50 and older, you just need to be prepared to overcome where it's possible. Sometimes it's not possible.

One other thing that comes into play with ageism, Mary, is that especially as a professional, if you're older, professional, many, many, many years, so 20, 30 years of experience, you'll never find a job description that requires 20 years of experience. There's always going to be a minimum of eight to 10 years of experience. Why should they hire someone with 20 years’ experience at a higher salary when they can hire someone with 10 years’ experience who meets the qualifications at a lower salary? I get the business decision that drives this ageism, but it's unfortunately a very real and I do know some people who take pay cuts because of that. They're willing to move into a different role and take a pay cut because they can't find the same level of salary that they were at when they were working. That's part of the outplacement, really full-time finding another similar type job, not quite ready for retirement.

It's interesting, Mary, you talked about having a younger listener aspect, but there are 30 and 40-year-olds who are already saving for retirement. What about planning for retirement? Why not have a 10-year plan? Why not think about where is your corporate career leading you and how can you already start to think about your third act? It used to be education, work, retirement. The third act is education, primary career, encore career, and then full retirement. Even if you're halfway through your primary career, it might not be too early to start thinking what is my exit strategy? What do I want my encore career to be? How can you work your primary career to lead you to the encore career? That's what I think about. I think maybe it was a happy accident having worked as a vice president, senior vice president in HR and doing that executive level coaching and org design and org effectiveness. I didn't know it was going to lead to my encore career, but I couldn't have planned it any better either.

Mary Killelea: I've been reading that because of the way career roles are changing within organizations due to the technology that skills are becoming the new economy within a company and how you appeal to someone. If we talk about skills, what do you think are some of the must have type of skills to accelerate no matter what your age in work today?

Dr. Michelle Prince: The first is critical thinking, strategy, skills, business acumen. You really, again, have to be aware and be able to understand whatever organization you're in and how that organization makes money.

The second bucket is more around the emotional intelligence, self-awareness, communication skills, especially across multiple stakeholders, hybrid environment. It makes communication and building relationships that much more challenging.

The third bucket I put skills in is more influencing skills. That might include negotiation because negotiation is an influencing activity, but also data-driven decision making and managing conflict to create positive change is also influencing. Really being able to see multiple perspectives but also having an opinion of your own and being able to justify it.

Then the last bullet, the fourth bullet is adaptability and agility. You've got to become uncomfortable with being uncomfortable. There's so much uncertainty and so much change that just constantly happens. You've just got to learn to be a little bit more comfortable with being uncomfortable.

It's those four buckets. That could be anyone who's looking to advance in their career, and especially if you want to become a leader. You have to have your functional expertise, but those are the other types of skills.

Mary Killelea: Can you share a success story where you transformed or worked with someone and how that made you feel? I think it is clear that you're passionate about what you do and that helping leaders become better leaders really does fill your cup. Can you give the listeners an idea of an example of that?

Dr. Michelle Prince: Yeah. I was working with a senior vice president of sales. I was actually brought in to, he asked for a coach, and I was brought in because the corporate HR team agreed that he could benefit from coaching. The good news is he asked for it and he was welcome to it because as I mentioned before, you really need to be open to developing new approaches.

As we became more adept with each other, I could be very open with him. I could tell that as a sales leader, he was very interested in the numbers, very interested in the performance, very interested in the thriving, the outstanding achievement of results, but not taking the time to build relationships. What was challenging for him is he came in during COVID. It made it challenging to build relationships in a virtual environment to begin with. He was very much an in-person, kind of build relationships kind of person. He was finding it very difficult to build a genuine and authentic relationship over Zoom. We worked on that.

Then also, I just told him, look, you have to care. These people are not robots. They want to work hard. They're in sales, so they're already motivated by the incentives, and they're motivated by the type of work that you're doing because you've got tenure in your team. You're coming in and trying to steer their performance and behavior, but you're not showing enough caring. That was the emotional intelligence aspect of it. Once his self-awareness was raised and we did a 360, so there was a lot of deep, good feedback to work with, he resigned himself to the fact that he almost needed to admit to them that he came in and it's just like a bull in the china shop just started breaking glass all over the place. But what he really didn't take the time to do was get to know people and really understand them. Once he did that, it was actually incredible, the improvement of his relationships, but also the way people related to him and he could see a huge difference. There was an uptick in productivity and performance because people felt like he really cared. That's just one example.

Mary Killelea: That's fantastic and such a relevant example too. This is a question I ask everyone, What does to be bolder mean to you?

Dr. Michelle Prince: I love the question. To me, it sounds and feels like an inspirational way of empowering people to be courageous. I think about the quote, it goes something like you either have to be part of the solution or you're going to be part of the problem and that's a little bit of my mantra. To be bolder to me means always be part of the solution. I can't help but look for ways to make things better whether it be more effective teams, more efficient processes, less waste, higher quality, greater satisfaction. I'm a bit hard wired that way. I can appreciate not everybody is like that, but that's what to be bolder means to me.

Mary Killelea: I love that. If you had to rank these in order of importance for building a successful career, how would you rank these? Building a personal brand, networking, the art of negotiation, or identifying a destination role in which you want to achieve?

Dr. Michelle Prince: Yeah, they're all important. You picked out really good ones. I would say networking is number one. A friend recently said to me, it's not who you know, it's who knows you. I thought that was brilliant. That's what networking is, but in order to be a great networker, you have to know what your personal brand is. If you're building your network, you're also building your brand, whether you realize it or not. What people say about you when you're not in the room, that is your brand. Whatever impression you're leaving behind, that's very important. When you're networking, it's really important to know what you stand for, who you are, what you're good at, what you want to do, how do you want to be remembered. That's networking one, building a brand number two.

I would say art of negotiating, I would put as number three. Everything in life is a negotiation of some kind. Know what your aim is and work with others. Nothing is ever accomplished alone. Work collaboratively to find the closest thing to an ideal outcome. That's the art of negotiating to me.

I think the destination role is probably number four because I would say it depends. If you're in an active job search, and I do a lot of career coaching and job search coaching, you definitely want to be crystal clear on what you're looking to do next. The easier it is for other people to help you find that next destination role, the better they'll be able to help you, the better they understand it. You have to be crystal clear.

However, in general, I really do believe that life is a journey and it's meant to be enjoyed. While you do need to have a general career direction, you may not want to lock yourself into a certain destination role because then you're not leaving yourself open to detours that could add tremendous value and pleasure to your experiences. I had a couple detours in my career that if I hadn't, I wouldn't be where I am today.

Mary Killelea: I love that. What would you tell your younger self?

Dr. Michelle Prince: Oh, I have the sign on the wall. Live well, love often, love much. I like to add be generous with your appreciation. That's something I would definitely tell my younger self. Don't take anything for granted and anyone who helps you along the way, be generous with your appreciation.

Secondly, I would stay curious. I would encourage people to stay curious and don't be afraid to ask the stupid questions because people appreciate when you're interested and it's more important to be interested than interesting.

Mary Killelea: That is key. That is so key. That is such an important message. All right, so we're going to wrap it up with some fun facts here. Favorites for you, pizza or pasta?

Dr. Michelle Prince: Who doesn't love pizza?

Mary Killelea: I know. I had some last night and I think even the night before. Okay, too much info. Favorite season?

Dr. Michelle Prince: Fall, the autumn is my favorite season. It's like crispness in the air and I love wearing big fuzzy sweaters, although in Atlanta, I don't get to wear big fuzzy sweaters that often.

Mary Killelea: Beach or mountains?

Dr. Michelle Prince: Absolutely beach.

Mary Killelea: Okay, chocolate or vanilla?

Dr. Michelle Prince: Chocolate all the way.

Mary Killelea: Coffee or tea?

Dr. Michelle Prince: Oh, coffee, coffee, coffee, coffee.

Mary Killelea: Dogs or cats?

Dr. Michelle Prince: Cats. Okay, that's a tough one. I have a dog and three cats.

Mary Killelea: Oh, wow. Okay. I'll give you both. Plenty of people say both. Thank you so much for being on the show and for sharing your talents and your insights and your advice. Really, really great stuff.

Dr. Michelle Prince: It's been a pleasure.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guests. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number two, little bbolder.com.