Career Growth Advice from Caitlin Clark-Zigmond, Growth Strategy and Marketing Leader | Career Tips for Women in Business and Tech

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 147
Featuring Caitlin Clark-Zigmond

Episode Title: #147 Caitlin Clark-Zigmond on Scaling Brands, Cleaning Data, Leading With Nerve

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Caitlin Clark-Zigmond


Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there, my name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the 2B Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. 2B Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you. Encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

So what does it take to scale a billion-dollar brand, lead massive teams, and still have the courage to reinvent yourself in a world where technology moves faster than ever? Well, today's guest knows the answer firsthand. Caitlin Clark-Zigmond is a two-time entrepreneur and the founder, chief executive, and marketing officer of Clark Growth Partners, where she helps high growth companies accelerate their go-to market strategies with AI powered precision. Before launching her own firm, Caitlin served as chief marketing officer for Intel's global software and SAS portfolio, where she built the global Intel Tyber brand and drove an astonishing 76% to 345 year-over-year pipeline growth through AI enabled marketing engines. She also led Verizon's business, a 6 billion public sector portfolio, delivering full-year revenue in just two quarters and earning the company's coveted all-in award. Her work has been featured in Harvard Business Review and has set a new standard for B2B marketing excellence. Caitlin, thank you for being here. It's great to have you here.

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond (Guest): Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here and to see you.

Mary Killelea: So, take me down memory lane a bit and just the high level of your career journey and then we'll kind of go into, you know, roles and responsibilities and how you came about to form your new company. adventure.

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: All right. Well, let's see. So, I started out years ago in high- tech in a little startup that produced precision ovens for microscopes. That started kind of a trek into technology. I didn't know how far it would go, but it seemed to go far. From there, my mom insisted I become an entrepreneur at some point, and I was a great cook. And so I bought a catering company years and years ago and took it from four people and 100,000 in revenue to about 1.8 million in sales, 15 part- timers, 10 full-timers, and 50 contractors. And during that time, there was a technical marketing company who was upstairs above my kitchen and who would come down and some of my clients from a catering perspective were theirs. And so I started on this whole adventure doing marketing work and getting the so what out of the you know the messaging and some of the campaigns that they were helping build. And so when I sold my company I had done work for Global Crossing and they were one of my clients and they called Visual Science and asked them to do another project and they're like why don't you call her up and see what she's doing? she sold her business and so I did and they said would you like to be a product manager and so off I went became I'm like what's a product manager I'm like well we'll tell you so around across audio video and web conferencing I started when WebEx was a little baby and the cloud was still having to be explained and SIP was on the rise from a phone perspective and got into that space and that led me into another startup that wanted to be the largest wholesale provider writer of voice and I became their first product manager there. That exited into being bought by Comcast. I built Comcast digital voice which is now a $2.3 billion product today. I took that product from PRD to its first B and built several more multi million dollar UKcasts and enterprise security solutions for Comcast business. And in that process and in that past, I decided that I really wanted to get back to explaining the value and the so what of things. And I went and did one other product role at Cordial, but Verizon had come back to me after I turned down a job for them and asked if I would build out the product marketing organization. And so it was a 12 billion dollar portfolio cheesecake factory menu of products and services. And off I went to do product marketing. I had success there. Became CMO over the public sector. We can talk a little bit more about that. And that led me from the public sector to build out mid-market marketing the global demand center into it doing a nice stint in the fintech space and then ending up next at Intel. That was an awesome opportunity being CMO over software, global software and SAS at Intel, pulling together a great portfolio of software solutions into a new brand, Intel Tyber. And then leading me to today in taking all that experience, wrapping it up and going to market strategy and fractional CMO and CPO work for companies, especially scaleups, especially companies led by technical leaders. So.

Mary Killelea: Oh my gosh. Okay, so this is why I do this show. Not only because I have known you for a while and never knew those stories, but how inspiring those listening to be able to go from a passion around catering to all that you've been able to succeed in your career. That is just amazing. So what were some of the key turning points that gave you the confidence to move between those different, you know, entry points, those companies?

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: I think there's a couple things. I mean, obviously that early kind of entrepreneurship foundation, working for a startup, you know, becoming an entrepreneur, I think that really gave me the, ability to be super curious and try things that were completely new and hugely uncomfortable to be honest and so, that's one, two, I think, you know, getting into tech. My dad's a liquid crystal physicist and I've always been around these PhDs who know incredibly smart, geeky things like we did at Intel as well. And being able to translate and understand what that meant and being able to translate what the outcome and the value was, you know, so people say, well, what does a liquid crystal physicist do? like, well, the layman's terms are all the color displays that you touch on your phones every day are the polymers and the research that he did over his career. And so having that technical experience of watching him make things that were unknown was partly what drove my passion for tech and being able to express it, I'm not a physicist. My science is chemistry via baking or a love for high technology.

Mary Killelea: What a blend. I love that. So why do you think your mom wanted you to be an entrepreneur so badly?

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: Even if you think back to when I was an entrepreneur, she'd also worked for nonprofits and felt it really important to, own your own money, own your own ability. And you know when I got my business loan, this was only sadly like only two or three years after it was allowed that a woman could get a business loan without the signature of her husband, which was good because I didn't have one then. But needless to say, you know, and that wasn't, you know, that was like basically in the early 90s, you know, that only happened like in 889, you know, that that changed. And so it wasn't that far back. And so it was really important, you know, as a woman to really be able to take ownership and know that you could do hard things and, you know, provide for yourself.

Mary Killelea: Well, I love that about your mom. I secretly hope that my girls are getting that message from me as well. Looking back, I mean, so much has changed in the last 10 years, the last 5 years. When you think of product marketing and what you did for Intel with the Tyber launch, let's talk about that. How marketing has evolved and what you did to bring that brand to life and what people who want to do the same thing can learn.

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: Yeah. So you know the Intel Tyber brand was actually the second global brand you know that I've launched. The other was Verizon Frontline for the public sector and you know a lot had changed. I think some of the things when you have large companies, especially Verizon being one, Intel being another, is that you have these large portfolios of products and that's wonderful and you there's a lot of great things that the challenge becomes that different parts of your customer base, your cohorts, whether they're developers, whether they're police officers, whoever they are, it becomes very difficult to see what is for them in all that you And so it's not that you need to have new brands all the time. You know, Verizon is a branded house, not a house of brands. And so it was very, you know, important that we really needed to showcase that we needed it. And at Intel, well, we did something similar. We've brought these, you know, disparate products together around trust and security, AI, machine learning, edge and cloud, performance optimization, developer, and we finally got each of them into their own motions from, you know, being able to serve their ICP, get their messaging, etc. straight. But in order for that to really break through all of the hardware side of Intel and a lot of the work that we're doing from a chip perspective or foundry, we needed to have more of an icon of what is software and what did it mean? And so working with the brand team, working with you know lots of different pieces of the organization, the C-suite and our leaders you know trying to discern is it necessary if it is what would it look like and you know we came through to showcase that Intel Tyber would be a great way and it wasn't just us because once we launched the Intel Tyber brand pulled this portfolio together delivered on the messaging which was recognized by Gartner as bestin-class class it was as we saw an over 52 57% increase in understanding from the analyst community and they first they finally said we understand what Intel's software strategy is and those are the things you want to see about a brand it's not just making it happen but really delivering on the promise of you know that there's value here's what it stands for helping it you know showcase case that it's you know what it its purpose is because it needs to be you know purpose-built it's an investment that a company goes through and you know from there we did a lot of cool used a lot of cool tools and you know AI and other things to be able to start driving pipeline to these because Intel had been doing much more awareness-based marketing not as much you know true funnel and demand generation individual products within the portfolio had but this was really taking the entirety of that portfolio and putting together a strategy.

Mary Killelea: So I mean like with AI there's so many new businesses that are starting up. What do you see from your chair, your viewpoint? AI businesses, where are they missing out or dropping the ball or where is the biggest opportunity for them in building that brand awareness because they're so probably focused on first to market that they're probably not thinking through some of the things that are essential to the go to market strategy.

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: Yeah, I think I mean AI marketing and marketers are some of the leaders when it comes to AI and taking on AI. But then just AI overall a lot of people are overwhelmed. I think some of it you just have to start with use cases and not tools and not try to know tools your way through at all. I think that's not going to work truly. You now begin with your data as the foundation. A lot of the companies that I work with in my practice are just simply cleaning up and democratizing data that they own. and then you know really finding some easy starter use cases that we can pilot and sort of iterate on. I see that you know for example in some larger organizations there's not enough data that's been democratized into their CDP for example and that tools whether it's their martech stack their CRM their success platforms whatever billing you name it you know if that's not there it just there's just so much loss just simply by not having those kinds of things cleaned up so I think there's still a lot of blocking and tackling even though there's lots of, you know, super fun, you know, tools to go play with. I would also say that if you can take these little snippets, do little tests, I think that's a piece of it. And then specific to marketing the intent data platforms and the AI that's available in those great platforms like six sense and bomba you know for account prioritization if you think about the needs or the opportunities around conversation intelligence and being able to bring you know good insights to salespeople or others gong and chorus and you know things like that and don't get me wrong I'm these are I'm just giving you examples there's lots of other great ones so I don't want to you know cast any aside but you know predictive analytics you know for lead scoring and pipeline I see so many companies who have great platforms whether it's a HubSpot a go high level an Eloqua you name it a marketing cloud who aren't fully utilizing the AI that's already in those systems mostly because they haven't democratized their data and then content and that personalization you know I am an product advisor for path factory who does AI generation ated content and that content optimization doing, you know, being able to quickly AV test and optimize, you know, personalized content and know that that's working and really deliver for each of your cohorts or each of your customer types or places in their journey is, you know, that's possible now. So I think there's a lot of really, you know, great tools that you can leverage and marketers, I think, are kind of the leading edge because we've had to go and gather data from all these systems by hand and we know how painful it is. We don't want to have to do it anymore.

Mary Killelea: So for those listening that might not know what it means democratize data, can you define that?

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: Sure. So a lot of times you'll have you know depending on your size of company you know you may have these different platforms you might have a HubSpot and you have your Salesforce and your Google Analytics and your customer success platform and you know and your billing platform and it goes on and on and on and on. The challenge becomes that those are each siloed. When you want any type of data, you know, you we all heard about Qualrix and PowerBI and and all the different things to be able to get to that data, which is they're great tools, but when you have a like a CDP, you know, basically a customer data platform, it's basically a data warehouse where all of the data that lives in each of these platforms can be housed connected by ID numbers or different values that connect them to individual customers or accounts. And that gives you so much more insight from all these different platforms and tells you not only what account number it is, what campaigns you've run, but what the billing cycle was, how long they were logged into their your platform, and all these different things that once you've given and democratized it into a into one location, then you can do so many things. And then you're seeing with great capabilities like the rise of Agentic, you don't necessarily have to buy new platforms. You just have to put a layer in with things like MCP or other things that will allow those platforms to reference and talk to each other much more quickly. So depending on your size, you might need a CDP, you might just need an MCP server dep, you know, depending on what you're doing. But it really then allows these platforms to talk to each other, share the data that they have. You give you the ability to correlate that and start leveraging it for bigger opportunities across the go to market spectrum, whether it's product, you know, prioritization, sales opportunities, marketing funnel, you know, customer success, onboarding, retention, you name it.

Mary Killelea: And that's and I'm not well versed in it, but I do know some about agents. So when you talk about adding in agents, that's basically kind of like, correct me if I'm wrong, programming to have a tool or an AI.

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: Run a task, right? Yes, it can run a task. Okay. you know, and so that's where you can, you know, take a look at, you know, if you're you have, you know, it's no different than, like I was just talking about some of these dashboards, you can have it go and instead of having to go collect your data from, you know, Google Analytics and HubSpot and Salesforce and doing all things, it can you can have an AI just go out, you know, an agent run the task of doing those updates, pouring them into a central location whether that's a CDP or a spreadsheet or whatever and then you know crafting that output and making it more readily available and the agents you know you can use them they're really improving for example chat bots are a good example I don't know about you but you probably don't like the version where they only have four choices and none of the choices are the thing you want to talk about like

Mary Killelea: Delete delete delete

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: You're like an agent agent agent. Right. And so, you know, AI though can take all that FAQ you had, make it much more conversational quickly and and then learn from that and then also if you've democratized your data in your site, they can, you know, learn from the customer support call recordings and other things that you you're doing those those transcripts and the learning that you're taking, you know, to help improve your, you know, contact center teams and make that more FAQs and just automatically deliver that and continue to get better. And then when instead of having that clunky experience, they're like, "Oh, so you don't want any of these things that I know about, so let me just quickly get you to an agent and just make that much more conversational." And that's already available and coming, you know, today. So, I think there's there's opportunities where LLMs and a lot of AI and Agentic will make quick work of some of these sort of clunky tasks that we're seeing that are digital and bring them make them easier and like I don't know you you've seen like the Gartner hype cycles, you know, where it's like super exciting and then we go into the valley of disillusionment. And so I was like happy kind of excited that we're starting to tread into the valley of dis disillusionment with AI because that typically means we're going to get a little breathing room and a pause because the work will be able to get done to really start to showcase where these where AI can really start making significant improvements and movements in in companies and enterprises. And I know you hear all the news of new capabilities each day, but I think the momentum, you know, will start to pick up as we move through that trough and you'll really start to see it show up in opportunity. And I think that's much more of a co-pilot type of, you know, output than, you know, replacing things as much as it's, you know, helping do some of the manual tax tasks better. I mean, we don't have lamp lighters anymore, you know, we don't use washboards anymore, you know, but we still, you know, we thought kind of the same thing when the internet came about that there was going to be no more retail, no more online, you know, no more jobs. We were and that never happened. We actually created a lot of GDP and I think this will be a similar evolutionary cycle where there'll be a lot of things we might stop doing, but a lot of new things we'll get to start doing.

Mary Killelea: So, what advice do you have for leaders out there right now who are making decisions in their businesses about AI?

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: You know, don't wait for the perfect opportunity. Get [clears throat] started and start small. You know, you don't have to, you know, tackle the largest problem, but really look for a pain point. Don't just do it for, you know, the sake of trying it. really think about what are some of your biggest pain points right now and start to deconstruct one or two. Use smaller groups of people. Get a little, you know, power group with some engineers, some IT, some sales, like a diverse set of people who are really focused on the customer or on that pain point and what's needed to deconstruct it and start to figure out what could be done. And I think you'd find that if you can test one or two of those, you can really start to gain some momentum that starts to, you know, get the flywheel going as they say. I think that would be one set of advice too if you know that there's plenty you know there's plenty of reason to know you want to keep secure and do things in the right manner but it shouldn't limit your ability to leverage these technologies. These are, you know, we have cutting-edge data center and cloud capabilities today and just, you know, there's lots of incredible tools that allow you to keep your data safe but still allow LLMs to help you and do great work for your organizations and you know, like I said, doing some tests and learn u to figure some of those out and some of it's as easy as you know, clean up your data and start just putting it all in one place figuring out where you know because just that alone even tools that you have a sales force or you know a customer success platform or whatever it is are going to work much better if they have you know more access to a combined you know portfolio of information about a particular customer or end user.

Mary Killelea: If you're a marketer out there listening to this podcast and you're looking at what skills or tools should I learn, in order to make me relevant, today, what would you advise them to be skilling up on?

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: Yeah, that's great. It's a good question because I think people want to be like, you know, I think I have to be a, you know, an AI data scientist to use any of this. And the truth is, I think I forget what research it was, but something that basically says you only need to be about 30% of the way through to be dangerous, right? And so I would say a couple things. One is, you know, to truly start to take there's lots of amazing free courses, whether it's Coursera or Google or, you know, an innumerable list of, you know, understanding the basics of AI, right? What is generative AI? What's AI, what's machine learning, what's, you know, what's an agent, you know, how do these work? What's an MCP server? And you don't have to be the one to know how to implement it, but you need to understand how they work directionally and what do they need in order to work well because then you know your martech stack, your HubSpot, your Google Analytics, your Salesforce, you have a lot of other knowledge and insight and you can start to see how you need to bring them to bear and work with some data scientists. I think I'm becoming much more analytical in some of this. You know we move from not to say that we don't do brand and a lot of those things but marketing is really moved into like a revenue outcome generated focus and AI just adds another layer of that sort of product management that technical operational bit of knowledge needs. And so having a little bit more of that, how does your HubSpot do its job? How does your Salesforce do its job if that's not something you're familiar with are some good points. And how does digital marketing work? You know, how does your chatbot work? Just some of those are just the basics of what they're doing, even if you're not the one coding them. That doesn't mean you don't have to get to that far, but you do need to know what you know how they perform the tasks that they do so you can figure out how best to leverage them and maybe find a use case that could be a good fit.

Mary Killelea: That is so great. I'm taking notes here. You've led large teams, scaled startups, and guided CEOs. How have you approached networking to build meaningful relationships at different stages of your career?

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: Wow, that's a great one. So, I will give a keynote talk about strategic networking. It needs to be proactive. And one of the things that's made me successful throughout my career, regardless of company size, is making networking really be a proactive part of what you do. I think people talk to their co-workers, they talk to, you know, their, you know, a few of the leaders, you know, here and there. But if you really stop, think about a project that you're working on today and who is really involved in making that come to life. Procurement, IT, legal, government affairs, you know, security, the list goes on. and and and you know it could be all very different for different types of programs or projects. But if you start to really zoom out and think about that ecosystem, you start to quickly see that you're not engaged or don't really know people in those other ecosystems. How do they prioritize? How do they make decisions? You know, how do they do their job? What makes it easy or hard for them? And that's something where I think a lot of folks who are actually really better to do a better job in networking in that entirety of their ecosystem. And I like to try to give people something like a 555 which is like really look about, you know, make a little matrix of, you know, who are high accessibility, high importance, you know, people to get to know who are high important but low accessibility. Maybe they're the CEO or some leader, you know, who is, you know, maybe highly accessible but low on the influence. Those could be people that are really your peers, co-workers that you can talk to. And then, you know, low availability, you know, low influence. Those are probably people, while lovely, you really in the day-to-day of how you need to network to grow your business to make your project successful aren't someone you need to focus on proactively. You're running across them plenty. And so I think really making it so that you think about who are five people that I need to talk to and who do I need to meet or introduce myself to and get coffee chats one a week you know 15 20 minutes and start really doing that on a proactive basis and you know taking the five reach out five coffee chats and then when you have those coffee chats five follow-ups of value like what could you offer you know back to them. Did you read an article? You know, did you see something about the favorite restaurant that they talked about? Or doesn't have to be, you know, workrelated, but always follow up within 24 hours with something of value. And I think those things when you put them together on a consistent basis, they truly grow your network in super positive ways. And as they say, your network is your net worth. And I really, you know, believe that actively.

Mary Killelea: I love that followup. Add value because what I hear a lot from women is that networking's hard because I [clears throat] don't know what I'll offer them. But to your point, like after you have a discussion with someone, you could follow up with something that you've learned in that chat, whether it is their favorite restaurant and you see an article. I mean, it doesn't always have to be so connected to business in order to make it a meaningful followup.

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: Or you could have decided to share some information. just do, you know, do that followup, you know, quickly. If you look at CEOs, Hans Vesberg, who I worked under at Verizon, he has 43 names on the back of his badge. And for those people, he has to call, text, email, and have meetings. He doesn't have to do all these things, but in some form or format, he needs to have a connection with these people each week. And if he does that then he feels that he understands what's happening in the company, how to guide it strategically, how to make good decisions, how to know how externally and internally people are feeling about, you know, the work that's being done or where the opportunities or challenges are. And that's the kind of thing where you're trying to get to that sort of vision. Who are your 43 people, you know, that you need to continuously stay connected with? Some of it could be personal. Some of them could be you know board pe me members or executives or whomever. But I think you know making that vet a more of a proactive activity and not a happening stance or occasional.

Mary Killelea: I love that. Any tips for women who feel hesitant to reach out or promote themselves on LinkedIn or some professional circles? I mean, you know a lot of women have a hard time and I want to say bragging because I know it's not bragging but they look at it as bragging.

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: You know, you can be an introvert and still network, you know, and I think sometimes some of the, you know, coffee chats when you, you know, in this keynote and the work that that I do in in this space, I give them a whole list of questions, but keep them open-ended and just the simple act of asking them, what's your biggest challenge? And put the person you're talking with at the center. You don't have to be selling yourself. You just really need to open, you know, open the door for them to share because a lot of people who, you know, they can't share everything with a co-worker or they can't always, you know, tell you some of their bigger challenges because it's in their, you know, with with folks that they see every day in that sense. And so when you're networking with people, you'll be surprised how much they open up. And so if you're it's not about selling yourself. It's about providing value. And that value could be listening. You know, that value could be, you know, picking up on something that they said and being able to go and do some research. Like I said, that restaurant, your favorite place that you went to when you went to San Francisco or whatever it is, right? Just to provide some value back because when you showcase that you listened and made a connection, that's the most important thing. It's not how much you sold yourself.

Mary Killelea: What's the best career or leadership advice that you've ever received? I would say, you know, one would be progress over perfection. I am very perfection oriented and so really trying to, you know, make sure I'm just making progress. I think that was one and that kind of goes into like not waiting for the perfect opportunity, you know, action as well. I think if you're in a job or a new role, like starting measuring everything from day one, you know, to the best of your ability, you can always learn more. But I think that's, you know, starting in marketing specifically, the, you know, the more you measure, the more you know what knob to turn or not. Like with the networking, you know, and this was why I really became proactive in the space around this was, you know, you have to invest in the relationships before you need them. And that really kind of hit home for me. And then I think lastly, as a leader or even any employee in a business, you need to learn the business, not just the marketing or the legal or the sales or the customer success or whatever role it is that you play. You really need to understand the P&L and how do your role and how does the company make money and how do you contribute because I think if you do that then you can you know much more readily you know say to people I need to do more of this I need to do less of that when it comes to you know trying to figure out what to do do the right thing.

Mary Killelea: What would you tell your younger self if you were starting over today?

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: Lean harder into the scary opportunities because I think we don't really realize how big we could become and we hold ourselves back. You know, if you look at a Billie Eilish or a Lady Gaga, if you use them or any, you know, sports icon or any icon that you look up to, even, you know, amazing knitter or crocheter that you love, you know, they never they didn't know that they could do that or be that at some point in time. And so, but they dreamed big enough. And I think we could. I would like to tell myself, you know, to dream way bigger than you think.

Mary Killelea: How has success been redefined for you today versus when you started out? You know, when you start out, you know, the title advancement, the budget size you had, the team headcount, the company and the brand recognition, all nice things, you know, but you really shoot for them because it helps you build credibility and so on and so forth. But now, you know, client transformation, you know, being able to have impact and see them be successful and being able to make a difference. You know, sustainable growth, not growth at all costs, I think is, you know, another one. And then the work life integration. I just, you know, I've done the 9 to 9 six days a week train and it's not a good one. I think, you know, now I really appreciate more of that work life balance for lack of a better term. Not that I don't surge at some points, but you know, doing that and truly having meaningful relationships because those are the things that take you through your whole career.

Mary Killelea: What does to be bolder mean to you?

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: I think it's, you know, permission to bet on yourself. You know, it's also, you know, challenging conventional wisdom and being able to think differently and out of the box. And it's also being that north star, leading through transformation, being, you know, not fearless. You can still be fearful but continue to sort of lead and really take teams, projects, opportunities you know to their end and you know navigate that whether it's through AI or you know project management, leadership, cultivating employees, whatever that might be.

Mary Killelea: You have shared so many great great things with us to think about and excite us about the future. How can people get in touch with you and learn more about your company?

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: Yeah, so Clark Growth Partners, we go to market advisory for scaling companies, you know, from series C to large enterprise and we do a lot of fractional work from CMO, CPO, CRO work. You can find me on LinkedIn at Caitlin Clark-Zigmond. You can also find us at Clark Growth Partners or clarkgp.com and learn more about the go to market strategy work we do.

Mary Killelea: Caitlin, thank you so much for being here. It was great to connect with you.

Caitlin Clark-Zigmond: Well, thank you Mary. This is wonderful. I appreciate you so much.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guest. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number 2 little bbolder.com.