Career Growth Advice from Sandy Carter, Tech Executive & AI Leader | From Bold Leadership to Human-Centered Innovation in AI and Web3

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 149
Featuring Sandy Carter

Episode Title: #149 Sandy Carter on How Bold Leadership And Smarter AI Choices Create Real Opportunity

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Sandy Carter



Mary Killelea: Hi there, my name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the 2B Bolder Podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. 2B Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you. Encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of is totally possible. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Hey there. Today on the 2B Bolder podcast, I am thrilled to be joined by someone who has been shaping the future of tech long before most of us were even talking about it. Sandy Carter is the chief business officer at Unstoppable Domains, a former senior executive at both AWS and IBM, a Forbes contributor, board member, best-selling author of AI First, Human Always, and a globally recognized leader in AI, cloud, and blockchain. She's been named a CNN Top 10 Most Powerful Women in Tech, a top AI business leader, one of AdWeek's AI Power 100, and recently named AI and Innovation Leader of the Year by Fortuna Global Excellence Awards. What I love most about Sandy is not just her resume, but how visibly and intentionally she leads. She's built an incredible public presence around innovation, AI, and Web3 while staying grounded in something we all care so much about, and that is human-centric leadership. She champions diversity, founded Unstoppable Women of Web 3 and AI, and has helped thousands of women step into emerging tech with more confidence and opportunity. Today's conversation is going to be so valuable. I promise you. We are going to talk about what AI is making possible for senior women right now, how to stay visible and credible and fast-moving tech landscape, and then how to lead boldly in an era where social media just seems a little frightening these days. Sandy, I really could’ve been more thrilled to have you here. Thanks for joining us.

Sandy Carter: Well, thank you, Mary. I appreciate the invitation to be on. And thanks to everybody who's listening to us today, too.

Mary Killelea: Okay, so you've held nearly every C-level role across two Fortune 100 companies, and now you're helping shape the future of digital identity and unstoppable domains. If you zoom out a bit, what were maybe some pivotal decisions or bold moves that changed your career trajectory?

Sandy Carter: I think one was I left IBM and I went and opened my own startup based on artificial intelligence. I think that that was a bold move because it gave me insight into AI. My startup was around using AI to determine a company's culture, much like a Myers Brick for people. And, that enabled me to learn about the gaps that still existed in artificial intelligence. It allowed me to move from a big company. I had started a startup, then went to a big company. It enabled me to see the differences between startups and enterprises. And there's good things and bad things about both. And it enabled me to really, I think, be very successful at AWS because when I joined AWS, believe it or not, the cloud was considered infrastructure for startups. And I thought that that was quite interesting. And I had so many people say, oh my gosh, you're betting on this small emerging platform. And I grew my part of that business to five billion dollars a year. So it turned out to be a good calculated risk. I think that was one interesting thing. I think a second one was I don't know how to phrase this right, but a lot of people told me as a woman executive that staying behind the scenes was the better career move, choosing basically invisibility over visibility. And as I thought about it, I thought, you know, I don't think that what we need right now is women in tech. I think we need more women who are visible because if you can see it, you can be it. So, you know, I continue to write for Forbes. I speak at Davel, CES, South by Southwest. Those for me aren't vanity plays, they were very strategic decisions to be able to shape a conversation versus just react to it. It also enabled me to hopefully empower a lot of women who were struggling to see a role model. When I came into IBM and I got my first executive job, I started looking around. Truly, there was only one other female VP that I could look up to. And I just didn't want, you know, my daughters to face that or other women to only have like a single person to look up to and say, oh wow, they did it. I can do it too. So I think those were two of the big career moves that I made. And you know, the biggest, boldest career moves feel like a risk to everyone else. Once you've kind of done the pattern recognition, you know, it's really not a gamble as more of a calculated risk, if that makes sense. And since I did that, I've built two billion dollar businesses by arriving early and then staying late, early to the trend, late to the exit.

Mary Killelea: That's amazing. And I know the work that you inspire so many women everywhere globally. And I think it's so important that you touch on calculated risk. Because as women, I think we're a little risk adverse, but we're so good at it when we think about it and we look at it contextually and we really weigh the pros and the cons. I mean, like the power behind, and I want to say this, women who do that are unbelievable. And your proof of that.

Sandy Carter: I think so. Yeah. And in fact, this morning I had a heartbreaking conversation. A woman told me this morning, she's one of the women I mentor. And she said, you know, I'm trying to decide whether I should have children or not, because I hear that having children will negatively impact my career. Heartbreaking. And so I told her, I said, you know, it may have impacted my career. I don't really know. But I have two girls and I was able to have a career and a great husband and great kids. Maybe not all at the exact same moment, but I was able to do that. So I don't want young women feeling like they have to choose between being super successful at work or having a family. It doesn't, it's not a fair choice.

Mary Killelea: I agree. And in this, you know, podcast, I've interviewed dozens of women and I've asked them about work-life balance. And everyone's answer is there is no perfect work-life balance. You just adapt to what your priorities are in life. And if having children is that, there is a way to have both. It's just one of those give and takes.

Sandy Carter: Yeah, that's right. And you know, I took one of my daughters to Dubai with me. I took the other to a Paris business trip with me. They learned a lot. And, you know, I thought originally that they would, you know, my daughters would grow up and they'd be like, oh mom, you weren't around enough. But what they remember I let them kind of choose what dates, what I what I made for them at all times. I let them choose what business trip they could each go on one business trip with me. And they remember that. And it was impactful for them and the young women that they've turned out to be.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, that's beautiful. I was just, you know, I'm living on LinkedIn these days. And one thing that I just saw these days was a woman who wrote this, and I wrote it down because I wanted to talk to you about it. It's a question a lot of women ask themselves when do you shift from learning to leading?

Sandy Carter: I don't think you ever shift from learning to leading. Because I think right now in the world of AI, you've got to be learning every single second. You know, when I worked for Amazon, one of the really cool things about Amazon is that Amazon always talks about continuous learning, continuous learning. And if you're not continually learning, you're behind. And so, and I think to be a great leader, you've got to learn. So, in my mind, you don't ever leave learning, but you lead from day one. I mean, if you think about it, even if you're coming in and you're doing an entry-level job, you can be a leader for those around you. You can be a leader for the next generation for college kids coming up. I don't think you ever make a choice between those two. I think you're always those two.

Mary Killelea: I think that's a beautiful answer. Because I think I know I'm guilty of it, where I felt like I had to continually learn. I couldn't apply for that job until I had that certificate, or you know, I just needed to learn a little bit more before I felt qualified. And so I love what you said. You can lead from day one, and that we need to be learning throughout our careers, which I think hopefully gives women, I don't want to say permission, but that mental self-permission, like, okay, I'm ready, ready before I even think I'm ready.

Sandy Carter: Yeah, and I think we as women too need to be encouraged. I think it's kind of part of our nature. You know, I do this discussion all the time. Like I'm telling women, you know, so what if you only have four of the things on the job? Go after it. And then I got offered a position and I was chatting with my husband, and I was like, yeah, but I have never really done this or this. And he's like, oh my God, Sandy, listen to yourself. You teach this all the time, do it. I was like, you are right, I'm gonna do it. And so I think sometimes we all need to be reminded that, you know, sometimes you just have to take the risk, go for it.

Mary Killelea: I love that. Your book, AI First, Human Always, it's a very powerful framing in that title. For leaders listening who feel both excited and overwhelmed by AI, how do you define an AI first mindset that still elevates human creativity, judgment, and leadership?

Sandy Carter: So I think AI first means that you're starting with your business strategy, but the way that you solve the business strategy, you should think about how I could use AI to help me solve this problem and the workflow and the decision, you know, and the processes. And I think you ask that before you ask, how have we always done this? Because I think AI gives you a different mindset. I don't think it's just about technology or a tool. This, this, this new revolution is different from the past. It enables you to think differently. Like, you know, we were talking about customer experience the other day, and someone was like, Yeah, how could we get it down from, you know, today we sent out four emails. Let's figure out how we can send two emails out, not four emails out. And I was like, Yeah, but with AI, couldn't we figure out when that person is getting ready to make the decision? And maybe we don't even send an email, maybe we pick up the phone and call them or we get them to our event at that moment. So, how do you think differently about what you're trying to solve for? I think it is really important. But in my mind, always involving people, humans, so that they can architect and really do that ethical checkpoint too. This morning we were chatting about something that was too funny to me. So there was a company that I just met with, and they had an AI agent that they had decided they would give the agent a set of rules and kind of boundaries for saying anything that's below $5,000 as a PO, you can approve. And so the agent started doing that. Then I guess it got really comfortable doing that. So it increased its limit to $50,000. And there wasn't a human in the loop. So it just went on its merry way and started approving Rex up to $50,000. It wasn't until it raised its level to five million dollars and it approved a purchase order for $5 million that the CEO kind of dragged the senior team in and said, How did this happen? Like I'm the only one who can improve five five million dollars. And so I think that we always have to think about humans in the loop, having some sort of viewpoint of what's really going on. You know, maybe over time that will change, but I think right now I think we need to do that, right? Like, how can we really look at that? I think about it this way. You know, I write for Forbes, and when I write an article, AI really helps me research faster. I still have to double check that it's accurate, but it does help me research. It can pressure test some of my arguments, but the thesis, the voice, the point of view, that's all me. It's all human. So AI amplifies, it doesn't originate my conviction or my voice. And it's gotta be both, you know. I still think that those companies and those people who learn how to use AI correctly, and AI isn't just chatGPT, by the way. I do think that those will be successful people in the future.

Mary Killelea: So in your mind, and I know it goes much deeper than probably the average person, but so you say AI is not just chatGPT. What would you say AI is?

Sandy Carter: So, I think AI helps you to be like different layers. Chat GPT is AI, but it's not the only AI tool. I think it's like the baseline. And depending upon how you use it too, right? Claude, chat, perplexity, try out all the tools, see what it's best at, because each of the tools has different things that it's best at. But if you're just using it to rewrite your email for you, or you're just using it to, you know, hey, go look up this for me, which you could do in a Google search, you're wasting, first of all, the output and you're really not using AI in the way I understand AI. I would say that if you're brainstorming with AI, like passing back and forth ideas, if you're leveraging it to challenge your thought process, if you're using it to frame up maybe some different ways to look at something, I think that's part of AI. But the bigger part to me is have you written your own agent? So for example, Mary, with my book, I write about agents. And I thought, well, shoot, I should have an agent with a book. And it, and of course, my book was the first book with an AI agent associated with it. And the agent is very simple. The agent I wrote just consumes the book, but then it also looks at all of my recent Forbes articles. It looks at my research from the digital economist, it inputs that into it. And so now the book is not, you know, nine months old. Now the book is fresh every day. And so I wrote to that agent. It was very painful. 17 different platforms is so much easier today than it was when I wrote the agent. And so that taught me a lot. And so I think everybody should be out there writing agents, using agents, eventually creating almost like a digital twin of yourself as well.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, that digital twin, just the wording, I think scares a lot of people. Do you have any fear when it comes to AI?

Sandy Carter: Oh, I do. I mean, you know, anything that's good can be used for evil. So I do, I really do. So, like, let's think about physical AI. You know, if you think about physical AI, it's a robot, and robots are, you know, the physical manifestation of AI, but they also learn differently, right? They don't just learn from text, they learn by watching and seeing what you're doing. So the most scary thing that I saw was this company had shown me their humanoids for assisted living communities. And so the robot came in. And in the first home I went to, boy, it was awesome. You know, it was helping people, it was encouraging them to get up and do their physical therapy, encouraging them to go into the common areas to build community was awesome. I was like, wow, this is great. Then I went into another home, and apparently there had been someone there who was abusive. Again, AI learns by watching. And so they were telling me that the robot, the humanoid, had been abusive to them. And that was really scary to me because it was the first time I thought, yeah, I'm such an optimist. I was thinking, shoot, this is really cool. They're gonna watch all the great people who care for the elderly and they're gonna replicate that. Forgot we also have some evil in the world, and they can also replicate that. Another example is a friend of mine who has created a robot arm. So if you've lost your arm, the robot arm goes on and can help you. And I thought, wow, this is great. Like, how could anybody find anything bad about it? And then I was at a conference with my friend, and he was he had the arm there, and someone raised their hand and said, oh, maybe I'll replace my arm with an arm that has a gun on it or has a you know, a knife on it, and that will, and so I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't even think about that because I just didn't think about the potential downside, and so I do get concerned about that because anything that can be used for good can be used for evil. And how do we make sure we have a way of detecting that? Now, the examples I gave are on the extreme, but you know, I was even thinking about, you know, let's say that you're having robots in your supply chain. How do you make sure that the quality that they're delivering is good? How do you make sure you don't have a robot that goes rogue? Or a very simple example, my daughter was developing an agent, a little AI agent as part of her schoolwork, and she decided her agent was gonna talk about fashion. So, you know, the kids would type in, what should I wear to the football game Saturday night? Or what should I wear to the school dance? I'm doing really well. Then somebody asked, Hey, my friend's gonna pick me up in this red convertible. What should I wear for the red convertible? All of a sudden, her agent got really interested in cars. It started asking everybody, oh, you're going to a football game, what kind of car are you going to drive? Oh, you're going to this, what kind of car? And so we actually had to go back in there and put boundaries on the agent to say, you are a fashion agent. You're not a car agent. And so it is interesting to see how it's autonomous, right? That's the definition of an agent. It's making autonomous choices and decisions. How do you put the boundaries, the borders around it so that it executes on the right, you know, right instructions?

Mary Killelea: That's so fascinating. I love your case studies because it brings it to life for me as a listener. You know, getting educated in this space as well as obviously the listeners. And I want to go so many directions with you. I want to change. Oh my gosh. Okay, let's talk about visibility because you've been on big stages. Obviously, while you're like running companies, you've had huge big roles. How have you navigated being highly visible while holding these leadership roles? And what's your mindset about risk and perception and credibility today?

Sandy Carter: Oh, wow, that's a lot. I would say that, you know, being visible isn't about a strategy to be visible or an ego. What it's about is it's about influence. If you don't have the influence to shape the narrative, somebody else is going to shape the narrative for you. And so I always think about, you know, should I be in this room because it's going to be impactful? Not should I be in this room so people see me, but what is my impact going to be? What am I going to take out of it? I do think that public statements carry risk. But I think silence carries risk too, right? So the question isn't is it risky? It's also a question of what's the cost of not saying something, right? And I found that thoughtful boldness builds more credibility than conscious silence. And so I don't try to be uncontroversial, but I try to be correct and clear. For example, I got a question on one of my panels and I couldn't answer it sufficiently in time. We had one minute to answer the question. It was a very deep question. And so I decided I was going to post my answer on LinkedIn. And the question was how do we ensure, how do we look at who gets the blame if a robot goes rogue? Who gets the blame? Is it the manufacturer? Is it, you know, the person who trained the robot? Is it the, you know, the person who did the AI, the software developer? And so I really thought about the question really long and hard and talked about how I think it's really about the overall essence of it and gave examples where I thought, wow, we could borrow from the airline industry, right? Because they already have some automatic pilots. They've got a black box, so they can dissect and understand. Could we use something like that? But I got attacked from multiple sides. I got attacked by the AI ethicists who were like, oh my gosh, you need to stop the robots right now. That's the right ethical thing to do. And then I got other people coming in going, well, you didn't think deep enough about this, but it got the conversation going, right? And I think I was correct, I was credible. And at the end, I think that it helped me. You know, reputation compounds interest because of the way that I answered their questions or said, Oh, well, you know, now that you're over that piece, let's talk about the real problem. I think it really helped. I think I'm really deliberate about making deposits and making, you know, and make sure that I do so with credibility, not being uncontroversial, but always doing so being credible.

Mary Killelea: And I think one thing that you may not be giving yourself credit for is fearlessness. The fearlessness to go, let's bring this conversation online in this other forum and be willing to have negative comments show up, even though you're smart enough to combat it. I mean, that's a lot that holds back so many people. I see just the fear of judgment.

Sandy Carter: Yeah, it is true. And you know, there are topics I stay away from. I don't do politics, I don't do religion, I do tech, like stuff that's you know, like tech or governance or you know, that side of things. I just decided that I'd rather be respected by people building the future than liked by people defending the past. And so I do feel like, you know, you have to ask these questions. And sometimes when you take a risk, you're gonna get people who disagree. In my mind, the disagreement actually brings out better answers. At Amazon, we called this disagreement and commit. So everything we brought up, we expected there to be debates and people to take, even if sometimes you didn't agree with the doubt on the opposite side, but you had to take it to debate it. But in the end, you kind of finish and then you agree and you move forward. Andy Jassy used to give this great example. And he said, if you're always compromising, you're gonna end up with the wrong answer. And he said, Sandy, look at the ceiling. He goes, I think the ceiling is 13 feet. You might say, Oh, the ceiling is 15 feet. And we could say, Oh, let's compromise. We'll say it's 14 feet, right? We're gonna be wrong because it's not 14 feet, it's either 13 or 15 feet. Somebody's right and somebody's wrong. So you've got to be able to not just compromise, but also stand up for what you think is the truth.

Mary Killelea: Yeah. AI and blockchain are evolving by the minute, and no one knows this better than probably you, but how do you personally stay grounded, informed, and authentic? And where do you source most of your knowledge? And maybe that's a loaded question, but.

Sandy Carter: Yeah. And so if you think about it, you know, I really believe that blockchain, well, let me back up. I believe that the biggest of the biggest things that happen and have happened, if you look back at all the big things that have become reality, is something where there's multiple things converging, not where there's just a single technology, but there's technology, there's culture, there's other things coming together. And so I always like to look at are we in that moment where things are converging? And I think we are. We're in that moment where I see, you know, I work with people on AI and they've got a set of problems, and I'm like, oh wow, blockchain can solve that. Like trusted verification. Blockchain is really good at that. Or they talk about, you know, hey, we need to have a better customer experience and AI alone. Well, we need spatial for that. And so I think right now, whereas AI is getting all the hype, I think these other technologies are building their ways in. I was just at Amazon's reInvent. Everybody wrote about AI. Oh, this is what they're doing in AI. But in the background, they published a guideline for blockchain use. They had an architecture guideline for how to use AI agents and blockchain together. And so it didn't get the hype, but man, I went to one session that was just killer. So, how do I get my knowledge about this? So, I try to be like I'm always learning. We started out with that, right? Are you learning? Are you leading? You're doing both. So I just try to learn as much as I can. I go to conferences and I always pick a couple of sessions to attend. I know not all executives do that, but I do because I want to keep learning. I listen to podcasts like your podcast, so I can listen to different people's perspectives. I read a lot, a ton. And then I'm a user, right? So I don't just I, you know, in my book I talk about a play storm, like getting your hands dirty. It's great to read about an agent, but have you ever done it? It's great to talk about blockchain, but have you ever used it? And so I do believe you got to get your hands dirty. So it's kind of that combination, you know, learning from others, listening, reading, and then doing.

Mary Killelea: That's so beautifully said. Okay, let's know I only have you for a little bit, a little bit more time. So I'm squeezing in a few more. You founded Unstoppable Women of Web3 and AI, which has opened up the doors for so many women globally. What gaps were you seeing that made you say we need this?

Sandy Carter: The number one we kind of talked about. So when I came into this new role, I found that there were very few women who were applying for AI roles or blockchain roles. And I saw the same pattern, you know, getting the same thing with earlier tech waves. Women were underrepresented, under trained, under-leverage. And I felt like, you know, that's not just a fairness problem. It's a capability problem. We're leaving talent on the table. And so when I started with my current company, I noticed that we only got 2% women applying. That was so low. So I decided to go ask women. I'm like, hey, this job looks perfect for you. Why didn't you apply? Well, Sandy, you had 10 things on there, and one of them was understanding AI. I don't understand it yet. Sandy, you had 10 things on there. One of them was AI ethics. Haven't looked at it. And so I was like, wow. So women really and truly, that Google study was true, right? Women really look at it and say, Oh, I've only got eight out of 10. I've got to, I've got to do better. And so I founded Unstoppable Women of AI and Web3 to do a couple things, three things specifically. One was to get them education. So we have a ton of free education. We've trained 55,000 women so far on blockchain, on artificial intelligence, on digital identity. So one is getting them educated so they don't have to say, oh, I don't I only have eight of 10. Oh, now I have 10 out of 10. The second one is that I found that women learn better and are better when they have a tribe. It's just who we are, right? We like friends. We're very social. And so I created events where you could get together, get to know others who are like you, who love what you're doing. So for example, at CES, we're doing an unstoppable women of web three and AI breakfast there. We're gonna do it on the first day the event opens. Why? Because then you got a buddy. You guys can go together, look at the demo floor, go to go to sessions. You're you've now got someone with you, someone's in your corner. And then the third thing, Mary, that was really upsetting to me is a lot of times I would show up to like an AI day and I'd be the only woman on the agenda. And I would go to the organizer and I would say, Why one woman? Oh, Sandy, you don't know. It's so hard to find incredible women. So I was like, Well, and we're gonna end this. This is just garbage. So I made this list. I started with a hundred most inspirational women, then it grew to 125. And then it was 140. This year we did 150 most inspirational women. And Mary, we keep getting. I mean, I could do like a thousand, literally, I could do a thousand. There's so many amazing women out there. And so I built the list so that no one can ever say again, there's no women. I can just say, here's the URL. Go here. There's so many women. Grace Hopper does a great job too, right? They always take that picture of all the women, and you're like, oh my gosh. It just again is just another power, very powerful point. So those are the three reasons I founded it.

Mary Killelea: That's so incredible. What would you say, even though you built this to benefit so many other people, what have you received from it? What surprised you most about the kind of the takeaway?

Sandy Carter: Well, I mean, and I'm getting goosebumps right now. So we just announced our next round of unstoppable women of AI and Web3. I had one young lady call me, and she's been in the business for 22 years. She said she's never won an award. And she never wanted to brag about what she had done. She didn't nominate herself. Her team nominated her. And she was just so, I mean, she was so honored with the award, but you could just see it gave her this confidence boost. You know, it just gave her this confidence boost. And that made me feel like, you know, one of my mentors at IBM always used to say, the biggest thing is, you know, reach back and pull someone forward. That's going to be your legacy. It's not not really about you, it's all these people that you're pulling forward and you're seeing them do these great things. And that's really how I feel with this list and this training. And, you know, I go to events and I see women, you know, they'll come on the first day to breakfast and then I'll see them later, like in groups of four running around. And I'm so excited that now they're not running around by themselves. Now they got a little pack to go with. So I just can't tell you how much it makes me feel like I've done something positive for the world, right? Versus, you know, made another buck or done something else. It just has a really good feeling.

Mary Killelea: That's fantastic. Last question. What does to be bolder mean to you? Well, I don't know if you know this.

Sandy Carter: I wrote a book called Get Bold. Did you know that?

Mary Killelea: I did not know that.

Sandy Carter: Yeah, I wrote a book called Get Bold because I felt like, first of all, I love it. I love the, I love the overall, you know, to be bold with the 2, to be bold. I love that. And I just feel like we need to take more bold chances. For me, boldness isn't recklessness. When I thought about this the other day, one of my daughters said to me, Oh mom, but you need to be careful. And I'm like, Yeah, but boldness doesn't mean that you're being reckless, it means that you're willing to act on what you believe before consensus arrives. It's being early, right? Being early, being willing to be wrong, but also being willing to be right. I think women sometimes are afraid of that. I mean, look at Fei-Fei Li. She's the godmother of AI. And at first, all these lists started coming out. She wasn't even on the list.

Mary Killela: Yeah.

Sandy Carter: And, you know, it was very upsetting to a lot of us. So a lot of us started lobbying and, you know, just making sure because she was right. She was right about her algorithm. She was right about what she was thinking about AI. She was right. And she was early. And so she needs to be, we need to be bold enough to take up for her. And, you know, because she was bold in doing this as well. So I think if you're thinking about AI, I think boldness means adopting AI before your competitors do. I think it means speaking about it, experimenting with it before it's safe to do. I think the cautious will be fast followers, but the bold will be first movers.

Mary Killelea: Well, thank you so much for agreeing to be here, sharing your knowledge, and for everything that you do for women in and outside of tech. I mean, you really are inspiring. And thank you for being available and accessible. Because I think not only in your writing, but in your engagement with people through the different social channels. That's just a new way of being able to connect with someone that a lot of people never had a way to get insights into. So thank you for everything you do.

Sandy Carter: Well, thank you. And Mary, thanks for this podcast because I think that you're reaching so many people and teaching them so many things with different voices. So thank you. Thank you for being bold.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guest. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number 2, the little bbolder.com.