Career Growth Advice from Shelley Prael, Visual Design Leader | Career Tips for Women in Visual Design

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 20
Featuring Shelley Prael

Episode Title: #20 Career Podcast Featuring Shelley Prael, a Successful Commercial and Residential Visual Designer – Women in Business

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Shelley Prael

Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you. Encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Hi there. Today's guest is Shelley Prael. She is a woman I've known almost all my life, and I think of her as a sister I never had. She is creative, kind, caring, and incredibly gifted in design. She is the founder of L'Inest Design, an organ-based design company specializing in home interiors, retail design, and visual merchandising. She and her work were recently featured in the Oregon Home Magazine Summer Edition 2020, so go check that out. In the show notes, I'll make sure to include the link to that. She has 20-plus years’ experience in retail visual design, working for top retailers including Pendleton Woolen Mills, Columbia Sportswear, and Meier & Frank. Shelley, it's so awesome to have you here.

Shelley Prael (Guest): Hey Mary, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Mary Killelea: You're welcome. I'm so excited about today's conversation. Let's tell everyone how you got started in the industry.

Shelley Prael: Well this is a funny one because Mary was right there with me. I started working at Gene Machine at the ripe age of 17, and that was like a teenager shop for those who don't know of it, that was in a mall, and I started doing displays and merchandising in the store, and the management team came to me and said, hey, we really like what you're doing, and we want you to start traveling to all the different Gene Machines and doing displays and teaching people how to do that. So up until that point, I thought I was going to be a schoolteacher, but that kind of really was a pivotal job. I went home and told my parents, hey, I figured out what I want to do. I want to enter the visual world.

Mary Killelea: That's awesome. I remember those. Those were good days.

Shelley Prael: I know, that was fun.

Mary Killelea: Okay, so educate us on the roles and responsibilities of someone doing visual design. I know I mentioned at the top, or the intro, a couple of stores or companies that you've worked for. Maybe describe some of the roles and responsibilities that you've had at each of those stores.

Shelley Prael: Sure. The visual world is such a wonderful world. I'm so glad that I chose that for my career. I'm also glad that I was able to start when I did, because it's really changing. I mean, there really aren't display windows today like there used to be. The visual teams have been cut back dramatically over the years. So not only was it a great career, an exciting career, I'm glad I got in when I did, because I was just able to do more. So Meier & Frank, I was there for about eight years. That was pretty amazing because you had the entire store, the display windows, Christmas shops, on down the road. So, you had the display side of it that you did every day. You're also working with a large visual team, which I enjoyed immensely. So, you're brainstorming with your fellow colleagues. You're learning from your bosses. You're learning from your mentors. You're learning from the people that you're right beside. And that was just the perfect intro into this career path. So I really enjoyed that. And then at the department side, though, you're also managing, you're in charge of the entire store visual presentation. So, you are managing the different area managers throughout the store to make sure that their departments look good. So that was also my introduction to management.

Columbia Sportswear, I managed the concept shop program on the West Coast. And that was great, too. And I think the biggest takeaway from that job was it was really about the relationships. So, with Columbia Sportswear, at the time, they didn't have stores of their own. They had little mini concept shops inside of sporting goods stores like GI Joe's, Sport Chalet, Dick's Sporting Goods, that type of thing. So, you would go work with those stores and put together a shop. And then I would have a field of merchandisers that would maintain the shops. And there was a lot of traveling with that job, too. So that was great. I got to see a lot of the country.

Then from there, I went to Pendleton, Woolen Mills. And that was, I was there the longest. I was there for 17 years. So that was such a great, such a great company to work for. And I learned so much. But it was also the point in time in my career where I think it pivoted where I was no longer the student and I became the teacher. So that was probably the favorite part of that job for me is teaching the store managers and the entire crew at Pendleton, things that you've learned over the years from your mentors and guides and bosses. And then now you get to share that knowledge and teach people and watch them blossom. So that part was really exciting.

Mary Killelea: So what were some of the challenges you faced as a visual director for, you know, the big companies? How did you get alignment and backing across inputters to be successful?

Shelley Prael: I think that would be true for the challenges that I had would be true for any career path. I think the number one challenge was always the politics. And I think when you're so creative and you just get so excited about a project, you just want to dive in, but you kind of had to slow down and remember the politics. And, and the one thing I've learned over the years is the communication. You really have to learn to be a good communicator. I think for me, what I learned probably the hard way was with my bosses is the drip method was the best way to go. So you kind of like maybe introduce an idea just slightly, and then you come back around, you talk about it again. And I don't think I was successful when I would come in a boardroom and, and just like, well, I have this great idea. And so, especially at Pendleton, it was a little more serious. And so, the drip method was, was the magic that I learned over the years.

Mary Killelea: Having patience.

Shelley Prael: Yes, patience is key. So those are the trickiest parts.

Mary Killelea: What were some of the lessons that you learned through your years doing visual design and merchandising in the retail space?

Shelley Prael: It's an old cliche, but presentation is everything. And that is so true. You know, just to be planful and a well thought out floor plan. But what's the purpose? Find the objective that you're trying to reach and then merchandise around that or set your floor based on that. So there's really business behind it too, which, but that's the fun part.

Mary Killelea: Your career path has evolved nicely over the years. I mean, you started off from one store was there for eight years at Meier & Frank.

Shelley Prael: Yes.

Mary Killelea: And then a couple years at Columbia and then 17 at Pendleton and now, owner of your own business. Did you see yourself in that next role? Like when you were at Columbia, were you envisioning working and doing everything that you were able to do at Pendleton ahead of time?

Shelley Prael: You know, it’s funny. Some of these things along the way kind of fell in your lap. The one thing though that, and you have this too, Mary is we have the drive and we need to push ourselves and we do. And thank goodness, I think we learned that from our parents and the hard work ethic.

Mary Killelea: Yeah.

Shelley Prael: And so you just kind of jump in and continue to push yourself, continue to grow, continue to learn. And in the earlier years, I had that drive and I wanted to climb the corporate ladder. What could I do? Where could I go? So what was that? You know, when I was at Meier & Frank, there was a visual director. Well, what do I need to do? I want to be a visual director someday, you know, and so you're constantly pushing yourself.

Mary Killelea: So how do retail and commercial design differ?

Shelley Prael: In many aspects, they don't, which is interesting. In both scenarios, you have an objective and then you design to that. So I think over the years in the visual field, in the visual world, you learn the foundational elements. So you learn all the basics of design. But then, so let's say that's your foundation, but then you learn different aspects of the design. Let's say you're building a cake, so that's your foundation. And then you learn how to frost it and then you learn how to add the candles. And so those are building blocks that you learn. So, you really treat all those pieces like legos. So each outcome may be different or each project may be different, but you're still using the same tools. And once you know the tools, it's really endless. You can build anything or design anything.

Mary Killelea: And I know you're meticulous. Is that essential to be successful?

Shelley Prael: That's funny. I think so. I once had a president of a company tell me that I was too hard on the stores. That I expected too much. And my reply was, that's how you want your visual director. So, I'm going to push the stores to get an A plus in class and with their store presentation. If I expected less, if I expected them to get a C, then I'm going to get an F. But when I push them and expect to get an A, then I'm going to get closer to that A. I think it's important to be meticulous. And that's something I think you're bornwith or you're not. So sometimes it's a curse. My family has found me straightening racks when we're out shopping and I don't even know I'm doing it.

Mary Killelea: That's funny. So do you have a favorite type of project?

Shelley Prael: You know what I love? The dramatic transformations. So the before and afters, that type of thing. Pendleton, they used to fly me out to a store so I could take a look at the site and then you come back and you draw it up and you design it from there. Sometimes I would have to do that just from photos. Maybe somebody out in the field would take photos of the space and then I would have to design from photos. But just seeing what you could do with the space, I think one of my favorite examples was Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The location was an old firehouse. Even had the fire pole. I mean, it was so fun. It was this historic building. So we couldn't touch the walls. We couldn't even put a nail in the wall to hang a picture. So no fixturing on the walls. So that challenges the creativity with fixturing and that was fantastic. But it had this little room in the back of the store. It had this little built in room with windows per se, like window panes, but there was no glass in it. And everybody at the corporate office was like, oh, we got to tear that down and just make the store bigger. And I said, you know what, what if we, it already had shelves on the wall too. And that was such a big challenge since we couldn't add shelves. So that was a big challenge. And that was such a big challenge since we couldn't add shelves to the wall. So what if we put a bed in the middle of this room and just treat it like this wonderful little cozy area and we put all the blankets on the wall and everybody loved that idea. And we did, and it just turned out killer. That was probably one of my favorite transformations.

Mary Killelea: Let's talk about your business now, Le Nest Design. And tell me why you named it Le Nest Design and what that means and kind of what services you provide.

Shelley Prael: Super. Le is actually Chinese for happy. And Nest obviously representing home. So happy home. I think that's really important. And where we lay our head every night, where we get re-energized, but you know, where we unwind, all of those wonderful things where your friends and family come over. And to me, that should be your happy place. So I love designing that for people and making their own space, their happy place. So that's a little bit of history behind the lay nest. I have always done interior design probably throughout my whole life. Even when I was a kid, I remember just rearranging my room and loving it, had no clue why at the time, but I just really loved that. I was constantly asking if I could repaint my room or move my furniture around. I think my parents didn't know what to think of that. But anyway, now I know why. But so even when I was doing this on the career side in a commercial setting or more retail setting, I was always doing interior design for my friends and family. And, and it was a great hobby. And I loved it. And I still love it. I will love it till the day I die. But I'm just really blessed and lucky that now I get to do that for my, for my career, my next journey.

Mary Killelea: So you offer retail, commercial, and then visual merchandising.

Shelley Prael: Correct.

Mary Killelea: Who is your ideal client?

Shelley Prael: My ideal client. It's what I love, whether it be on the commercial side or the home side, I really like a client who's willing to step out of their comfort zone. Those are the projects that give me energy. They're the most rewarding. And then when they're happy at the end of the day, then that's what it's all about. If you can really make a change. And then from the commercial side, it's about tracking sales. And it's great to see the ROI after you've redone a store. But on the home side, it's about the happiness of your client. That's the reward.

Mary Killelea: From a commercial side, how do you track the sales to the redesign of it? I mean, like, how do you track the return on an on investment really?

Shelley Prael: That was funny. I was at Pendleton, probably maybe a few years in. And I was traveling to the stores. And if I was just doing a normal store visit, we would go in and re-merchandise the store, move the fixtures around, change up the window, I would have some classes teaching them how to merchandise doing displays. Moving the graphics here, they're just kind of shaking it up, like stores do on a monthly basis. But freshening their store and teaching along the way. What was unbeknownst to me was that there was a senior management member who was tracking which stores I was visiting and the sales of the stores at the moment I would leave. And he was recording that. And he's the first one who actually noticed that after I left the store, sales would increase. So there was a couple meetings about that. And they said, we think we're onto something, we hear you. I think we're starting to understand the importance of visual presentation. So what can we do? What can we do about this? Because even when I started, I started out as a regional manager and had some stores that I oversaw. But I was starting the visual program, and they brought me in to put that together. So once they realized the importance of visual, the visual elements, visual presentation, then together, we put together my job as the visual director that was a full time job.

Mary Killelea: Oh, that's awesome. And that's really good for our audience to hear. Because when you're trying to get yourself a promotion, and you're trying to articulate or show the value of what you bring to the table, they can be mindful of that and do their own tracking or enlist a different group to do the tracking to say, Hey, test me out, let me see track the results and correlate the two.

Shelley Prael And I don't know what boss doesn't study the daily sales flash in the retail world every day. So, it was very apparent. And it was on top of mind for everybody. And it was so exciting for me to see like, Oh, my goodness. I remember once flying into a store that was outside of Washington, DC, and it was a major transformation. I mean, we really turned that store upside down. And the sales increase after we left, I had a team of a couple people with me, were dramatic. So those are the days that who rocked, right? Those are the good ones.

Mary Killelea: Having your own company and managing a project from start to finish, what are some of the challenges that you face in that scenario that are new from when you worked, obviously, for the big retailers?

Shelley Prael: The design per se challenges to me, that's the fun part of my career and the fun part of my job. So it's, it's almost like sometimes, when you have less to work with, or when the budgets are tight, those actually are the most thrilling projects to see what you can come up with, because they challenge your creative juices. So I'm not going to say the design challenges, what I am going to say is the business challenges behind those. And that would be budgets and timelines. Because with every project, no matter whether it's commercial store design, or, or home interiors, or remodels, or new construction, there are always budgets, and there are always timelines. And those are the hiccups. So it's really just about keeping on top of them, and communicating with your client, or in the retail settings, communicating with your bosses. And then today, it's really about communicating with your client that, that that communication is clear. Because those can turn into big hiccups.

Mary Killelea: Right. What were some of the biggest lessons that you've learned from starting your own business?

Shelley Prael: Well, you don't have that paycheck every other Friday. So, you got to learn how to budget yourself. But then again, if it's Tuesday morning, you're not feeling well, you want to go for a run instead of going to work, you can do that. So, there's pros and cons to everything. I think at this point, it's you want to be successful. And that stems from even what we talked about earlier, earlier on, just, you know, you're driven, you want to be successful. And, and today, it's about I want my clients to be happy. So I have an initial consultation with each client, each client that reaches out to me. And we go to their house or go to their store, and I assess the project, we spend, we spend one hour, the dedicated one hour, and we brainstorm the entire time, what are you looking for? What are your objectives? Tell me a little bit about what you're feeling? What are the what's the thought process? And what are the things that you like? What are the things that you see? And then, during that hour, I'm assessing am I the right designer for them, just as much as they're assessing if I'm right, but you don't you want to make sure it's right for both parties. Because you want to be successful, you want to be successful, and you want your client to be successful. So I've actually turned out jobs where I didn't think it was a good match, or, or if they needed skills that I didn't have certain computer, or that type of thing, architectural drawings, I'm not, I'm not a licensed architect, that type of thing. So you really hash it out at the beginning, and make sure it's a right fit. And I've learned that that that's critical. So I do that with every opportunity.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, I could see that being very vital for just the compatibility, because and the trust and the compatibility. Yeah. What is your most important marketing tool that you use to promote the business?

Shelley Prael: This is going to sound old school, but my answer is me. And by me, I mean my reputation. I actually haven't done any, it's gonna sound funny, I haven't done any marketing to date. All of my business has been based on referrals. And that's been great. So, back to the back to the board, work hard and make your clients happy. Yeah. And as soon as I finish up one or two projects, another one rolls in. And it's always been a word of mouth. It's been a friend of a friend. It's been my hairdresser recommended me or on down the list. And that's been great.

Mary Killelea: So well, and recently, you were just featured in the Oregon Home magazine, which it really was a beautiful article, great photos. How did that come about?

Shelley Prael: They called me, they found my business on Houzz. I don't know if you're familiar with Houzz. And then they checked out my website. And they called me out of the blue. And they asked if I had any projects going on at the moment. And I did, I had a couple, I was working on a spa at the time, but I just wasn't sure that that was going to be photo worthy, let's say. But I told them, I said, but I've got my own house remodel down the road and we're going to redo the kitchen and the master bath. And I would actually love to feature that if you're interested. I didn't know what their timing was. And they said, absolutely, we will wait for you. So, they just said, keep us posted with your schedule. And when that happens, and so we're finishing up the remodel. And they called and said, okay, you're going to, you're going to be up. It's this summer. And originally it was supposed to be in the fall. So, a little bit of a, woo, okay, let's, let's jump in and do this. But it was great. They interviewed me. There was a questionnaire that we filled out. The magazine editors and such interviewed me first. So, there's a vetting process. And then they send the writer out and there's a whole other interview with the writer. And then they send out a photographer and the production manager and film your house or photo your house. So that was really, really exciting.

Mary Killelea: What was your favorite part of the redesign that you did?

Shelley Prael: Well, that's a good question. I would say I'm probably more excited about the kitchen because that's where we spend most of the time. That's really where the family hangs out. And that's, that's like the heartbeat of your home. And we knocked out a wall between the kitchen and the dining room, which, which everybody's doing these days. And it is just marvelous. The open concept is all what everybody says it is. It's just wonderful. It's just creates a bigger space. We use the dining room now more than we did before. And there was old soffits that we blew up. So the space just feels bigger.

Mary Killelea: When you look at your home or those photos, you see such a blend of your commercial and your residential blending together. Do you think like that's your unique differentiator, if you will?

Shelley Prael: I do. I do. I love that you noticed that. That's funny. The photographer of the magazine and the production gal who came out, she noticed that too. And she made a comment that everywhere I look in your house, there are displays. And she asked me, is this how you live or did you do this just for us coming? Just had to laugh out loud. I'm, uh, what? Cause I didn't realize it. I mean, I don't realize it as much as Alex's coming in. And I just thought that question was so funny. I said, no, this is how I live. Anyway, that was fun. I think a lot of the display tricks, uh, work for both sides. And so, and so that's fun. And that's probably one of my favorite things to do too. I've re-coined it. I don't call it staging. I've re-coined it to home styling. And, uh, that's one of my favorite things to do, going to people's homes and just shake it up. Uh, maybe we pull all the accessories from the entire house and put them in one room. And then we break them out into different rooms and just move everything around and just give them a whole fresh look. And it, it really is dramatic what, what you can do and then what the end result can be.

Mary Killelea: So how do you stay current with trends or do you just not pay attention to trends and just go with your gut?

Shelley Prael: A little of both. I think it's my job to stay current with trends. Um, and back in the retail days, it was part of my job to stay current with apparel and clothing trends, because obviously if you're dressing the store windows, you need to know what's hip and what's up and how are you wearing your scarf today versus 10 years ago and that type of thing. So that really was part of the job. And then today, more on the home side of it, it's keeping up with trends as far as right now, uh, organic elements are really in plants or back, even the home trends, come and go, which is, which makes it really exciting.

Mary Killelea: Pinterest. I mean, I love Pinterest and it can be a rabbit hole and you can go on and on and get so many creative, good ideas and distractions. I mean, so what do you think of Pinterest? You mentioned Houzz earlier. So I would love to know like your go-to tools.

Shelley Prael: Pinterest is my all-time favorite. Love Pinterest. Never knew something like that could exist. I was always a magazine hoarder. I used to buy all the design magazines and when you look at my piles and piles of magazines, so it went from mega stacks of magazines to Pinterest and you just sit on your iPad anywhere, on your phone even. And it's the greatest thing on earth. And with anything you see the good and you see the bad and the ugly. But creating boards is fantastic. Uh, I started out when Pinterest launched having my personal boards and then now I have boards, uh, under Le Nest Design. And what I love about it for my business side is I can create boards for clients and I can say, okay, this is what I'm thinking. Am I close? Is this what you were envisioning? Uh, is this the feel and the look of for your home? Am I on track? Because it's really about brainstorming with the client. It's not about what me coming in and what I think. I'm going to go in and keep throwing them ideas and then when one sticks, that's what we run with. But that's their home. I want to make sure it's perfect for them. So the Pinterest boards is a great way to do that.

Mary Killelea: What's the best piece of advice that you've ever received professionally?

Shelley Prael: That's a great question. Um, when I was at Meier & Frank, I had a female boss, her name was Linda, and she taught me to inspect what you expect. And from a managerial standpoint, that is the best advice I have ever received. So even back at Meier & Frank, when you're managing the different department managers and area managers and getting them on board to have the best presentation in their departments, coming back around and inspecting. So, if you tell a manager, okay, here's your homework, I need you to do A, B, and C, but coming back around and checking on it. And that is key. I have taken that with me through every retailer that I've worked for. I've taken that with me, through my own remodel. Let's say I've taken that with me with clients. Uh, so now it's now I'm checking on the subcontractors. What are the plumbers up to? You got to go check on them. Even if you have the plan well laid out, you got to check on them because things, hiccups, hiccups happen. And, uh, with the plumbers and the painters of the tiles or whatever. So it really is about inspecting what you expect. I will never forget that.

Mary Killelea: What designers inspire you?

Shelley Prael: I'm going to look at that kind of from a couple different angles. I have always loved Ralph Lauren my entire life. I have followed Ralph and will always adore Ralph Lauren and the company, probably more so from a branding aspect. I think they nail it. They have stayed true to who they are from day one through today. I think that is so admirable in the retail world. And I've just always been attracted to that look and that style and that flavor. And anytime I traveled throughout the country, I was always seen if, if there was a Ralph Lauren store that I could go visit and get inspired. And so that's probably one of my favorites, um, from a designer standpoint.

From the visual world, I even remember studying Tiffany's when I was in school and they had a famous designer at a New York and I thought this was cutest thing in the world. He would do the Tiffany store windows in New York and he would always have one little thing that was askew and then he built a following. So people would come in the way and stare at the window and try to find the one thing that was askew. So, let's say it was a place setting, um, then maybe one fork was turned upside down or I mean, their displays are so elaborate. Let's say it's a bird cage in the windows, you're like, where's the diamond or, you know, I mean, their displays were so amazing. And I love that concept. So I've always followed Tiffany's windows.

And then I would have to say my favorite today is Anthropolgie. I absolutely love going into those stores always have that is a company that's still strongly believes in visual merchandising and presentation. And I love that. Like when you go into those stores, it's an escape, right? And you're shopping and it leads you from one room to the other. And of course staring at all the displays and how'd they make that? Did they glue that or what? That's the fun part of, that's the fun part of visual.

Mary Killelea: Okay. So what does to be bolder mean to you?

Shelley Prael: If I had to sum it up, I would say to be strong. Um, and I'm so proud of you, Mary, for the, putting this together like you have and inspiring young women. I mean, that is so courageous and I'm really proud of what you've done and where you're headed with this. I'm not sure when I started out that there were that many people that were willing to sit down and talk with you or that you could learn from? And so this is such a great opportunity. I love it.

Mary Killelea: Thank you.

Shelley Prael: I think what's funny is you can learn from a textbook. Anybody can learn in any field. You can learn from the textbook, but there's nothing better than learning from a mentor or someone that inspires you. Those moments stick.

Mary Killelea: What would you tell your 20 year old self?

Shelley Prael: You're going to make mistakes. Learn from them and carry on. I think in hindsight, I probably wish I would have asked more questions along the way. Don't be shy. Ask your bosses and million questions and glean from it.

Mary Killelea: Does it sadden you to see the closure of so many retail stores with, obviously COVID having a huge impact, but even just the now online buying and shopping is becoming the new go-to really.

Shelley Prael: Yeah, it deeply saddens me. Yeah. I mean, I am an old retailer, um, love the store experience and, uh, it's really hard for me to buy online. How the heck do you buy a sweater online? I just, you have to touch it and feel it and hold it up. And I just, I hate shopping online. But you do out of necessity, but, um, no, I think it's sad. And so when I was in the retail world, even when catalogs started becoming a big part of every company and online sales started to become a big company, you would watch the retail store sales go down and the catalog sales and the web sales would grow. So the retail for the company, the dollars were still there, but it was sad because I was on the store side and it's sad to see your entire career path and everything, you know, um, kind of changing, changing format. And especially like we talked about earlier, the visual side of that, I'm not sure there's ever going to be, do you remember the old Meier & Frank with the Chris, the Santa's Santa land and the, you know, and the Christmas shops and the Christmas windows, I'm not sure how much we're going to see that in the future. And that saddens me.

Mary Killelea: No, I agree. Those it is really sad because those were experiences.

Shelley Prael: Exactly. Exactly. That's so funny. You said that word experience to me is everything when I'm designing your retail store. What is the experience that you want the customer to have? I mean, that just sums it up right there. And we talked about Anthropologie, and that's a great, a great example of an experience in a store.

Mary Killelea: So what's next for you?

Shelley Prael: Where do you see yourself in five years? I would like to grow my business. What I miss from my retail days is working with fellow designers and brainstorming and collaborating. Uh, I just think you get the best end result when you brainstorm and collaborate. Um, I mean, I do that with clients, but I miss being surrounded by fellow creative people. And there's just such energy with that I love. And so when I have a big job today, though, I do have a couple of fellow designers that I worked with in the past that I pulled on. And it's just so fun. I just think you get the best end result when you're like, take a little bit of their idea, take a little bit of their idea, and you stir it all together. And that's nine times out of 10. That's always the best design at the end of the day. So I would love to have a couple of big jobs where I could bring on a couple of designers and always learning, always learning. I want to keep learning.

Mary Killelea: I love it. Well, I could, I could talk to you and I want to hear your stories on and on and on and on. Plus your website. I think your website does a really good job of showcasing some of your, your works. Um, so how can people get in touch with you? How can they learn more about your business?

Shelley Prael: Thank you, Mary. You just hit the nail on the head. I think my website is a great place to go and all my contact information is on there.

Mary Killelea: What's the URL?

Shelley Prael: Le Nest Design, www.lenestdesign.com.

Mary Killelea: Awesome. Shelley, thank you for being on the show today.

Shelley Prael: Thank you so much, Mary. This was great. I love what you're doing. Keep it up.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guest. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number two little b bolder.com.