Career Growth Advice from Margaret Immink, Tech Start Up Leader | Career Tips for Women in Tech Start Up

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 21
Featuring Margaret Immink

Episode Title: #21 Career Podcast Featuring Margaret Immink from Consulting Partner for PwC / IBM to Founder of Directory Spot – Women in Tech

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Margaret Immink

Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you, encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Hi there. Today on this show, my guest is Margaret Immink. She is one of the founders of Directory Spot, which is an application-based business that provides online and mobile directory solutions for schools, HOAs, churches, companies, and any type of organization that needs a secure directory. Margaret and I actually went to high school years ago and just recently reconnected, and that's where I learned about what she's been up to and was so intrigued about Margaret's story and wanted to share it. Margaret, thanks for being here.

Margaret Immink (Guest): Thanks so much for having me and for actually doing these podcasts. I actually listened to a few of them, and they're very insightful. They're entertaining, funny, and really relevant. I think I wish they were around when I was 20 or 21. But anyway, I love listening to all the stories, so hopefully I have one to tell as well.

Mary Killelea: Thank you very much. Okay, so before we dive into your story, how you started up Directory Spot, I would love to back up and hear about your various roles working for IBM, Chevron, and the other enterprise companies, and tell us part of your journey and how it came about.

Margaret Immink: Okay, so we're old now, since we went to high school together. But after going to school in Santa Clara, which was in Silicon Valley in the late 80s, I ended up starting my career at Chevron Corporation in downtown San Francisco. They had this finance and development program where you got to rotate around. And really, I took the job because I wanted to live in San Francisco. That was sort of the dream part of it. But it was a great assignment as well. And then a couple months into the assignment, the earthquake happened.

Mary Killelea: Oh, gosh.

Margaret Immink: And so I ended up living out in the East Bay for months of that. But, you know, it added a little bit of a story to the start. But so then after that program, I took an assignment in the corporate headquarters in a finance group, and was doing finance and accounting. And a project came to that part of the organization, and it was a new software called SAP. And this is like back in 1993. And Chevron was going to be one of the first implementers in the US of R3, which was their new product at the time. I actually loved the job. I loved the project work. And I loved working with consultants who at the time were from Anderson Consulting. And at that time, it was a hot skill. And I mean, funny enough, 32 years later, it's still a relevant software package, which is crazy.

But I got the opportunity to make the move to consulting without having an MBA or really anything. And just because I had the skill, I ended up going to Pricewaterhouse, which was a big consulting firm at the time in San Francisco. And they put me right out on a job, no training, nothing. It wasn't like when you started out of college, when you got to be a coder and you went to all this training, they just threw me onto the job because I had experience. And my first assignment was funny enough, in Applied Materials, which is in Silicon Valley, so semiconductor manufacturing, equipment manufacturer. And I had done an internship there between my junior and senior year in college. And so, I knew a lot of the people, which was kind of funny. But anyway, it helped, kind of helped my transition into there. And I was like a finance team leader. And then we moved through the project and I got to be the system test manager. And I had never coded anything. And I still never have coded anything. But I was good at creating project schedules, I guess, and coordinating tasks and talking to people and being friendly and tracking progress and reporting to the stakeholders at the time. So it was kind of like a nice little opportunity to get a little leadership experience right in the beginning.

But then a few months after their second rollout, the project manager left. And so I was asked to take over the project. And that was just sort of right, right time, right place, right time. There are probably 20 people on that project and it ended up going well. And then we were awarded the European implementation. So, I got a chance to then take over the whole European role from the consulting side. So, there's always a client side project manager and then there's a consulting side. But we took a team, and we assembled consultants from the US and then several locations in Europe. And we set up shop in Amsterdam and we ran a project there for a year and a half. And that's just a great opportunity to learn people from different cultures, learn how business works over there, very different from the US and live over there. So, it was great. But that gave me that was their kind of final rollout at the time. But then all of a sudden I had this track record, these rapid implementations. And I was able then to move to a next project, which was another semiconductor firm called Hyundai and it was in Silicon Valley. So I did that for a year and a half or two years maybe. And then got to lead a big project at Micron in Boise. So again, it was another year and a half of full scale SAP implementations. And they kind of just got bigger and faster and better. And I was always in the semiconductor or equipment manufacturing space, so I got a little name for myself. Just because we had all that business, I guess.

It was a time, I think, when consulting firms were booming in the late 90s. But it was really challenging to keep women past the manager level. As travel demands on the job, they did not align with trying to have a family. I mean, even just working in Silicon Valley at that time, you work from six in the morning till nine at night every day. And then I would commute back to San Francisco. And that was just the mentality of the client. And it was for sure the mentality of the consulting firm. So, it was a lot, but it was fun. People were fun. You worked with smart people. But there was this problem with keeping women. And so there were barely any women partners. And in technology, in the high tech practice, I don't think there were any at the time in the Bay Area. And I remember my part, so talk about mentoring here. I had a partner who took me under his wing from the very first days at Applied Materials. And I worked for him at all the projects. He kind of took me along. And we would win projects, I would lead them, and we would keep doing them. And they were successful. But he flew out to Boise, this is in, I don't know, late 1999. And he came out to me with me and he said, this is really a slim thing, but I'm going to push you through. We're getting ready to put people up for partner. I'm going to push you through. It's really slim. You're definitely not ready. You're way too young, all this. But he said, you know, this timing might just be right. They're definitely the time they were struggling to get women into the partnership, I mean, get women past the manager level, let alone get people into partner. So they needed a woman on the list. And I think I just got lucky. So, it worked out. And funny enough, I was also pregnant with my first child at the time, which even was scary to even admit that to them. But it turned out even better for their story. So not only did they have a token woman, they had one who was pregnant. And at the time, I think I was the youngest partner in the US. So that was kind of exciting as well.

So, then I did have a daughter, which having a baby and being a consulting partner is not really a great mix. But I came back and I guess to your podcast, I decided I'd need to be bold. And I felt like because I was the poster child at the time, that I would ask for a part time schedule. And I asked for a 60% schedule and nobody had done that. There were no part time partners. And nobody had done it. And I said I would work 60%. So, I'd be three days a week on client site. And I was a partner who was always working. I wasn't just I wasn't a selling partner. I was a billable partner. I was usually on a project side. And I'd be compensated 60%. But of course, in consulting, you work like 100, my 60% was 100%. But it worked out, it gave me some flexibility. And I remember my first assignment as a partner was 3Com and Palm. And because a partner had transitioned out, I transitioned in. And what was kind of interesting is they were doing projects back then, they were developing enterprise applications on Palm devices.

Mary Killelea: I remember the Palm.

Margaret Immink: Do you remember the Palm? Okay, so it's funny to think back on. But I had a Palm pilot at the time. And I thought it was really cool. And the whole idea that employees could actually do business transactions on a Palm while moving around a warehouse or wherever they were, seemed really cool at the time. So we worked on that for a while. And it was fun and Palm and 3Com had some ups and downs and some transitions during that time. But it was it was good experience with a handheld device now that I look into my future. But then my husband actually got an opportunity to do a tour of duty in London for his job. And although I was just a new partner who had just gone back on my part time schedule, I asked for a tour of duty as well. And I didn't…

Mary Killelea: You were bold.

Margaret Immink: I was bold. I was very bold. And again, at the time, they needed high tech partners in Europe. So they didn't have any. And we had a chunk of them in Silicon Valley, who had worked at all these technology companies. And they were rolling out to Europe and doing projects there and they didn't have the expertise. So, my mentor partner again sold me over to Europe. But it was pretty loose. I think he made a couple phone calls and said, I have this, you know, US part time - I'm not even sure he told him I was part time. I have this woman, she's coming over, work out a deal for her, her husband's coming too. And she's great. And I got on a plane and went, but not a lot of transition there. And I can remember, yeah, there weren't many female consulting partners in London and definitely no part time partners. But I remember going to my first meeting that they were having like a partner meeting and I had no clients. I had no business. I had no nothing, no computer. And I walked into the meeting and the secretaries were all- it was very formal. It was very formal in London. And the secretaries were passing out name tags and they were looking for my name tag. And they said, well, we don't have your name tag. Are you a secretary or are you here as - who are you? And I said, well, no, I'm actually a new partner here. And they just laughed and looked at me and wrote me out a name tag and off I went. So, but it was the days of three-piece suits, smoking in the office, definitely nine to five in that, definitely different than Silicon Valley. But I had to gather some courage and figure out what to do, who to talk to, who to ask, and how to get myself some work. Because, you know, I was just going over there and really, I needed to sell some projects and make some consultant friends and get some work. I think having all this experience working in Silicon Valley gave me a little bit of credibility. And one of the partners said that I could go work on Compaq with them and took me along. And we started a project there and it worked out. So, I got a little traction on Compaq.

After Compaq, then I worked on a Phillips Electronics project and I did some supply chain. I kind of transitioned myself into supply chain, which was very interesting to me at the time, and did work with Phillips Electronics in Europe and Asia. And so actually, even with my 60% schedule, I was traveling to Europe most weeks and 9/11 came into play during this too. So, that was tricky. And then I would even travel to Asia. But I'd go out on a Saturday and I'd be back by Thursday morning to still kind of have my three days. But it was tricky, but it was okay. And I kind of led this double life of three days a week in Europe and Asia, and then two days a week as mom with little kid in the park with the other moms trying to make friends. So, it was kind of interesting. So, I was doing okay with my high-tech practice and everything. And then IBM bought PWC. So, during the Enron days and Anderson became Accenture and PWC needed to figure out, oh, actually, when I was in Europe, Pricewaterhouse and PWC merged as well. So, that happened. But that was fine. But then IBM bought PWC, which in Europe, IBM consulting was actually very strong. So, that was good news. However, no technology company wanted to hire IBM and pay them big bucks to consult. So, the consulting practice was, the high-tech practice was decimated. So, I needed to now, I guess, reinvent myself because I needed to still be a consultant and it wasn't going to be in high-tech.

So, I knew a little oil and gas lingo from my previous days. Yeah, it's just kind of fun. I mean, this is to your point about trying to be bolder. But because I have Chevron written on my resume from 15 years ago, they assume I've got some expertise. But I did some work on BP, which we had a lot of work at BP. And then that went okay. And I kind of then became part of the oil and gas practice, still doing SAP though in supply chain. But an opportunity came, and I'm almost done with my story here, but an opportunity came about to get in at Shell. And Shell is headquartered in the UK. And they were going to do a global downstream SAP project. And this was big. I mean, they'd already implemented SAP several times. So, this is, and they'd done it in different pockets all over the world in downstream. And they were now going to put it under one big umbrella and basically redo the whole thing. So, it was a large project for them and would be a large consulting project. But our competitor was well entrenched and very good friends with the CIO and had been working there for years. But so, the partners I worked with, the UK partners in the three-piece suits, asked if I would go, me who was, I think I had just had a second child too. So, I was transitioning back to work. And I mean, honestly, just transitioning into even work, getting work clothes and getting to work. But they asked me if I would, I wasn't even really back to work yet. If I would go meet with him, he was American, and try to get us in there, because they had been failing. I think they'd been cold, I don't know what they were doing, but I think I was last ditch effort.

I mean, this is crazy, but I remember that I put on some assemblance of professional attire and went and met him. He wanted to meet at a bar in like, kind of like near where Shell Center was. It was like four o'clock in the afternoon. And I had been on the playground because it was one of my off days. And I'd been on the playground before. And I walk in, and we probably have a half hour conversation. And at the end of it, and it was all fine. I mean, it was kind of awkward for me, but it ended up, he said, I said, could we just, could we do a strategy piece? Do you have something you need done when you're looking at this whole new project? We will come in, I will bring a couple partners, only senior people, and we'll do this work for free, three or four weeks. And then we'll go from there. And we did it. And of course, then when he gave us the in, I got some really good people to help. And we were in there for a few weeks. And then we were able to pitch for the big job. And it really was just between us and the other one. And we won it. So that kind of became this maybe my career highlight, I guess, right there. And we embarked on this, you know, multi year, world or global implementation for Shell. So that was actually going well. And I felt like consulting as a partner is a little bit of a sales job. You always need to have your billable hours, you need to have your projects going. And you're always a little nervous if one's coming to the end where you're going to get the next. And this was my ticket for years. So, but then my husband got a dream job offer to go to move to Chicago. And we ended up moving back here. So, but because Shell is a global company, I was going to stay working on Shell. And I did. And I did for a couple years after that. But really, they wanted me I needed to be traveling my full three days away from home. And, I'd lived in London, I lived in San Francisco, and then now I moved to suburban Chicago. And there were no nannies at the bus stop. I mean, there are no nannies walking to school. So I just decided maybe it was time to take a break. And of course, through all of this, I had lots of challenges of work life balance. That was that was a daily, you know, hour, even though I was working a 60% schedule, it still was never enough on any of the fronts. But anyway.

Mary Killelea: That's incredible. That's an incredible story. And you're right, I can't even hearing you with the complexity of it. And with the, you know, I think the pressure of feeling like you have to run at warp speed, in order to compete and maintain and defend your territory and justification for being there.

Margaret Immink: Yeah, oh, yeah.

Mary Killelea: You would be so exhausted. And then you turn around and you have to come home and then you have to do all the other home stuff that's so exhausting.

Margaret Immink: Right. Yes, yes. I was lucky that I had a really good nanny in London who worked my three days a week. And she ended up actually moving here to Chicago with us for a little bit after to make that transition, which was great. So that was definitely helpful. But you know, she worked the three days and then then I was on but anyway, it was a I don't think I would have done it a different I couldn't have done it a different way. Because you're still, yeah. Anyway, so we moved here. And I just decided that it was time to take a break. And actually consulting is such a, at least for me, a job that was so demanding, but yet so exciting. You really can't walk away. I mean, you can't get out even if you want out, you can't get out. So, me being living in the Midwest, and this travel to Houston, it was it was a good time to take a break. And I really thought I would go back. I thought it was just going to be a break for a while figure things out, adjust to the US, I'd never been part of the IBM consulting practice in the US. And partners had changed. Now I was in the Midwest. So, there was there was some sorting out to do.

But anyway, the break lasted a few years. And then I did lots of volunteer work, tried to be involved in my community here, get to know where I live and be involved in my kids school. And but then I thought I could do a little more. It'd be nice to make a little money too. And so I did do some work for a software company. And I was just doing it was flexible, I could work from home, and I was doing some project management stuff that I had done that I had managed for so many years. I could almost do it in my sleep. It was something. And it was a good it was a what I learned from it was that this was a company that developed their own software. And you know, software was always in development and always never really working. And I was always having to talk to the customer about what was going wrong and how we were going to fix it. And I mean, that's very draining. So then after that, I was or during that time, I guess I don't laugh, but I was the president or co president of my elementary school children's PTA, which is okay, good.

Mary Killelea: That's good. So was I.

Margaret Immink: As I was doing the president of the PTA, we were trying to do the directory. And I had my phone, it was probably like iPhone two at the time or whatever. And I just thought we're printing, we're trying to get a volunteer to print this directory. And it was painful and it was always late and it was always wrong. And it was there was so much paper that we were trying to be green was in the time we were really trying to be green here in the Midwest. And I just thought there has got to be a better way. So that's where my idea for the business kind of came.

Mary Killelea: That's incredible. Well, we'll talk a little bit more in depth about your business because I totally want to get there. I have a couple other questions though. So, the path that you took clearly technology was at the forefront and software. Have you always loved technology when even when you were young? I mean, has math been like a passion of yours or something?

Margaret Immink: Oh, that's interesting. I wouldn't say when I was really young, but math came easy to me. But I never thought it was something I would pursue. But I do think maybe going to school in Silicon Valley at the time definitely had an impact on me. I mean, I left home with a typewriter and then I learned to use a computer in school. And we had some of those really early Macintoshes in the computer lab. And I always thought that was really incredible that we could not type papers and we could go to the computer lab. But also, I think just living in the Bay Area for a while and working in all those technology companies in the 90s and early 2000s, you can't help, next computer, all those things, even Palm Pilot, all those devices were out. And looking back, you can reflect on what time that was and how fast technology was moving. But you were in it, so you didn't really understand it. But I'm sure that that had a big influence on me. I mean, I remember buying the first Palm Pilot, the first iPhone, the iMac, all of that. I loved Apple products, which was a problem when I started working for IBM. So I think definitely since college, I've had a love for technology.

Mary Killelea: What do you see as like the pros and cons to women pursuing a career in technology?

Margaret Immink: I think there's only pro, mostly pros. You know, it's really fast paced. And my perspective on technology is I was mostly working in consulting firms, working as a consultant in all the different companies, which is a great way to see all these different types of technologies going in and out of them. But anyway, I think it's obviously, yeah, fast paced, relevant, really demanding, volatile, you never know. I think I have probably met the most volatile people working at some of those companies in Silicon Valley, not as much in Europe. I think in Europe, people are a little more laid back. But in Silicon Valley, people can turn on a dime, you know, if something goes wrong, one little project metric isn't perfect, and the world has come to an end. But if you can have a stomach for that, then I think it's fantastic. Really smart people, I think work in technology. And so, I guess depending on the career path you're looking for, I think it's a mainly pros.

But I would say, throughout my career, I worked mostly with men. But I think honestly, being a woman, and offering those different perspectives, I mean, even the things that just make women women, like even caring for children or whatever it is, empathy for my coworkers, wife who's sick, helps me. I mean, I think it helps people. I mean, I guess at the end of the day, if people like you, you do better at your job. So, if you get along with people, and they want to work around you, then it makes things easier.

Mary Killelea: Directory Spot, let's take a dive in and tell me about it. And I want to hear it.

Margaret Immink: Okay. So, as I was saying, the PTA co-president, we were looking for a better solution for this directory. And I had a friend that I had played tennis with who developed apps on the side. And he just said, one day he said, if you ever have an idea, he was telling me that he does did this. And he said, if you have an idea, let me know. And so I thought, you know what, this is my idea. Let's take this paper directory. It's not very complicated. And let's put this on an iPhone. But at the time, this is like 2012, the idea that personal data or your child's information would be on an app was very new and maybe scary. So, it had to be secured. So that was our whole thing that, you know, you had to be able to log in and only people that are parents of the school could have access. But he developed the very first version. It was really simple. I had to send out individual usernames and passwords to every single parent. I emailed them out. But the parents loved it. And it worked. And they thought it was great. And so, then the next year, I got six schools to use it, a couple more here, and then a couple from the Bay Area that were just friends of my friends, parents that I knew. But they all paid for it. So the kind of interesting thing about this is that, I mean, the one I did for my own school, they didn't pay for. But our first six customers that second year, and it was six different apps on the App Store. So, each school logged in with their own login, which meant that if we had to change, we had to do it six different times. Yeah. So, but they all really liked it. And I think they paid like five to $600 a year for it, maybe even more. I can't remember. But we ended up winning a technology award for the best use of technology in elementary schools in Illinois. So that was kind of fun. I mean, I think there was not much competition. But, you know, what we were doing sounded like a good thing.

So I went to the PTA conference, which is an experience. And we, I was able to give a presentation, which was interesting to see people's reaction. Other schools, they thought, you know, they thought, wow, this is kind of a good idea. And we ended up having a little booth just for fun to see. And the guy that developed it, and another guy did the booth with me. And we got tons of interest. So we decided, I just remember even going out to lunch at the end of that day or dinner or something. And we talked to him and we said, you know what, I think this is something, or we all did, we thought we're like, we think this is something people will want. So, which means we need to completely redevelop this thing. It can't be one app for every customer. So, we need to figure out how to make one app on the app store. And then when you log in, it basically skins for your school or organization. And that's really how it started. So we did it that first year. And it was just for schools. And we went from the six schools to the next year. Okay, here let me step back. At that PTA conference, and this is kind of a changing point as well, I ended up meeting, there was a company called Volunteer Spot. Which is now called signup.com. And they were like a, maybe a big sponsor of the whole convention. And the founder of that company was an ex Accenture, an Anderson Consulting person. And she's from Texas. And we just kind of hit it off. And she was very interested in our company. And we ended up, and they were much larger at the time. I mean, well, and they still are, but they ended up buying a stake in our company in exchange for marketing. So, they helped market us in the very beginning, because they did a lot of email marketing. And they had a lot of users. So, they helped us get the word out. Because besides our friends and family, we didn't really know how to market our little product. So they helped us the first couple years. And to this day, she is still a big mentor for us. So she's been like a big sister, even though we're the same age, but she has helped, you know, even as two weeks ago, I talked to her on the phone about something that's going on. So they have helped us throughout our entire process. That's wonderful. So that's been great. And maybe that is one of those, I mean, because the guys would never have made that connection with her. And so, yeah, I guess it was probably just we had a conversation and we saw we'd talk more. And it just turned into something. And yeah, so she would probably if she was on the podcast, say that she mentors us, she’s mentored us through this through the whole journey. But anyway, so that's how we started. But we grew from six customers to 40 customers to 140 to 300. And we just keep growing.

Mary Killelea: That's incredible. I love how you took a just a real simple problem and made it efficient and then saw that it actually was marketable. And then you broke it down and said, OK, let's how do we build this from the ground up with the scaling opportunity here?

Margaret Immink: Yeah, right. Yes.

Mary Killelea: So what part of the aspect is your favorite? So there's marketing, sales, technology, app development or operations. And I'm sure I'm missing a few.

Margaret Immink: Yeah, and we're just a little company. So, we get to do if you want to do all of it, you can do all of it. It's all there for you to do. But I would say my favorite part is talking to customers and the product design and strategy. So those, I guess, go hand in hand because I am kind of the face of our product to the customer. So in daily, when they say, hey, I really wish it would do this or I wish it would do that, it helps me get this vision of where our products should go.

Mary Killelea: Well, and you're like a user too. You were a user.

Margaret Immink: Yes.

Mary Killelea: There's no one better than your ideal customer to be running the business.

Margaret Immink: Right. Well, and I've learned along the way that even though I think I know actually everything it really should do, that there are other people out there who might know better. So I have to always keep listening. But yeah, no, that has been that's another one of those, I’m luckily am in a place where I had credibility. You know, I'm talking to people that I've already done their job so they I can talk their language. So that definitely helps. But I also think, surprisingly, I've enjoyed the startup part. And even though I'd worked in all these, and if you would ask me 10 years ago or 15, whatever I would have said, I'll only work in large companies. I need lots of people to do all those things for me. I'm not an entrepreneurial person at all. And I never thought I would work in a small company. But surprisingly, I have enjoyed. I think if we had a big board of directors who was in our ear every day, I might be a little more stressed about that. But I have enjoyed trying to figure it out, you know, every single step of the way from the very beginning, getting a name, getting a lawyer, incorporating a website, every little piece of it. Now, you know, we're into our help desk system and our customer management. So now we have software systems to run our business. And choosing those and getting those to work and getting them all to integrate and getting them to be on my phone so I can take them wherever I go. All of that has been surprisingly a lot of fun.

Mary Killelea: So that's kind of it ties into my next question about the biggest lessons that you've learned from starting your own business.

Margaret Immink: Okay, yep.

Mary Killelea: What are what are some key lessons?

Margaret Immink: Okay, so yeah, maybe probably to that point a little bit. When you start your own company, you don't have people to do anything for you. So you do everything. And if you don't know how to do it, you need to figure it out. I would say ask for advice all anywhere and everywhere. And I think the, you know, the founder of Volunteer Spot has been really helpful to us in that. I had this like a line to someone who had done the exact same thing in a similar space, different product and different offering, but in a similar space. And listen to your partners. And when I say my partners, those are my co my other founders. So, there's three of us, there's two other guys. And funny, we didn't really know each other before. So, our evolution is the original tennis player friend, he ended up leaving to go pursue advanced degrees. And he just got too busy. But the other two guys were people that he had been in his for fun business with. And so the three of us have, you know, stayed together this whole time. And we all have very, very specific skills. So, it's this interesting, we kind of just share things three ways. And we can't survive without each other.

Mary Killelea: That's nice.

Margaret Immink: And it's been a good thing that we do have these skills and where we might not have had the skill, we know which person needs to learn them.

Mary Killelea: Right.

Margaret Immink: I'm not going to go learn how to code something on in iOS, but John is, so we have those areas. So that's been lucky, actually.

Mary Killelea: That's great. And having everyone have their own unique talents is like, what's the, the legs of a stool. You know what I mean?

Margaret Immink: Yeah, exactly. And our stool would fall down if one of us, yeah, if one of us went away, for sure. But also, in the app business, when you're talking about lessons learned, one of that I had no idea was really how Apple works. And the fact that Apple likes to there's a bazillion apps out there. Right. And, you know, each September, for sure, and sometimes in surprise times, Apple introduces new operating systems or a whole new set of changes. And you have no idea that they're coming. I mean, they do put a little bit out, but you never really know till it's here. And then you hope your app works.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, that's the crazy thing. I mean, even with like social media, if you've got your Facebook business and they decide to change something, well, now you have to like hurry up and shuffle and try to catch up. So, that's the complexity that I don't think people who dream, oh, I'm going to go start an app business, really think through. And those are critical things to think through. So, you know, there's a lot of women out there who have an idea and think gosh, let's make this a profitable app based business. What would you tell them?

Margaret Immink: Well, talk to me, because I've gone through it. But it can be overwhelming. And there are a lot of pieces to it. I mean, there are so many great ideas out there, but trying to turn that idea into a piece of technology, and depending on what it is, if it's a game, it's one set. If it's an app like ours that has a big, huge database in the back and a lot of security profiles and firewalls and all of that, there's a whole other piece to that. Figuring out the architecture of it and just trying to understand how that's all going to work together and where they're going to get those skills. And then on top of that is figuring out how they're going to make money from it, assuming that's their goal at the end of the day, unless they're doing this for fun, for complete fun. But yeah, but it's obviously can be done. And as long as you have the skill set, it's not like we have to buy a huge amount of inventory. Our costs are very low. But that's because we've been in a fortunate situation that we can do pretty much everything in house. We have outsourced some things, but from a development standpoint and a database and infrastructure and app development, we've been able to do that all within the three of us.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, that's a huge savings.

Margaret Immink: Yes. Even knowing where to go. Do these people had the right skill sets, my partners have the right skill sets to figure that stuff out.

Mary Killelea: So I read that you volunteer and spend time mentoring small business startups. So, what are some of the common gaps that you see business owners needing help with most great ideas, but maybe they don't have the resources or –

Margaret Immink: Yes, exactly. I mean, kind of what we were talking about that. And this is a volunteer for this organization. It's been a wonderful opportunity to get to meet these entrepreneurs and small business startups to kind of just going through the same. And they always, they always will give me people that are doing apps so that it's, it's very, very aligned. And probably the number one struggle they have is how to monetize it, you know, and really, and how are they going to make money? They have a lot of ideas, but who is going to buy this and will they pay for it? How much will they pay for it? And how is that all going to work? And I think I've tried to help them say, let's, let's really focus on that. And then let's design around that, versus just design this amazing app that's going to do everything. But the fact that no one really is going to pay for that is tricky because where are you going to end up with that? So that has been helpful and it helps them think through that too.

Mary Killelea: So is that almost like taking the monetization and reverse engineering it and identifying all the gaps and like, or walk me through that a little bit more.

Margaret Immink MI: Well, so, so say you have an app that is going to go, well, I don't know, it's going to, it's going to choose which kind of flowers should be in your flower bed. Okay. So, I don't know how it's going to work, but then, who was going to want to pay for that? What is the business case for that? I mean, of course everyone would love that because that'd be nice to have, but is there, you know, are there already 10 other people doing that? Can they go get a book at a library? Can they just Google it? Why do they need your app? Like what is going to be special about your app that they're going to want to pay for it? And maybe it's that when they click on yellow, it will deliver those seeds right to your house at a discount price. There's some hook that is going to make people want to buy that app. And I think that's why businesses do struggle is because they do have these great ideas, but they haven't sorted out how in the end they're going to make money.

Mary Killelea: Right. The differentator. Yeah.

Margaret Immink: Yes. The differentator. And with Directory Spot, one of the things that has been nice and helpful is that people were used to having a paper directory and paying for it. In some form or another, an organization has paid for that in the past. So the idea was just using technology to deliver what they're used to paying for in a different, better way. We think in a better way. And eventually they think in a better way. Yeah. In a more efficient way. So that's a much easier sell than the fact if they had never had a directory before. And we do have lots of those customers too, that have never had a directory and they think, oh, this is a great idea, but that is a new, it's a mindset. They don't have a budget item for that. And so it's a mindset change that, oh, yeah, this is a great idea and we do want to pay for it.

Mary Killelea: So, when you think about expanding products or taking on new segments, what kind of testing do you do? Do you just do your peers? Do you do?

Margaret Immink: That's a good question. So, we expanded out of schools. Our first big market was schools, and that's where we started. And probably three or four years into it, we had, just based on our school customers coming to us and saying, gosh, our church really would use this. Or my homeowners association, or a lot of it was charity organizations. These moms that are parents at school are also in their local children's society or whatever. And they thought, gosh, we should have this same kind of directory. And so, we developed an organization version of the same app that looks and acts the same way, but the database and the way it's sorted is completely different behind it. But they play very nicely together. So that has enabled us really to hit, anybody that would want a secure directory that really has more than 75 people in it, is a good candidate for us.

Mary Killelea: That's wonderful. So what would you say is your strategy for success?

Margaret Immink: I think it's always been, just for me personally, has always been around building relationships. I mean, I think at the core, that's probably how I've succeeded. I mean, that's what's worked for me in the past. But with Directory Spot, I think it's been to keep very focused on our product strategy of providing the best directory solution, but not adding functionality that every single person wants. And I probably learned this a little bit along the way with SAP and the whole transition from custom software to package software on a high level, where every time we went to a new client, they wanted SAP to do exactly what their old system used to do. And we had to convince them through a business process or whatever that, no, you should do it the way SAP wants you to do it, and it's going to be better, and we're not going to make changes to it, and you change your business. So I do think actually we've applied a lot of that to Directory Spot and tried to keep really focused on, we're just providing a directory. We're not going to do your website. We're not going to take your payments. We're not going to do your volunteering. You can go other places for that. We're doing a very inexpensive, simple, easy to set up and launch directory, and it won't cost you very much. It's going to cost you less than your paper directory.

Mary Killelea: Well, I think that you make such a good point there because so many people who are starting off a new business and someone comes to them and says, I want this, I want that, they're eager to please them because they want the sale, but then they get ahead of their skis and overcommit or they don't think it through. And so it's not as strong of a product had you guard railed it and really made it the premier directory or whatever the case may be.

Margaret Immink: Right. I mean, it's funny how many of my customers will come and they will, or new customers, they'll send me their printed directory from last year. That's very detailed and very fancy and sorted in all kinds of ways. And they want Directory Spot to produce exactly that. Same font, same format, everything. And so, I had tried to convince them that no one's even going to look at your printed directory anymore because they're going to be using the phone app. But I really try and get them to, let's just use this basic, it's got all the same information. It just looks a little bit different and it's working for 800,000 other customers. So I promise you, it's going to work for you. But that's part of the sales game, I guess.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, that's awesome. So working for 800,000 other people.

Margaret Immink: I don't say that, but yeah. Well, I know. My main point is you're not even going to need that paper directory because you're going to be looking at it on your phone, but they still have the option.

Mary Killelea: So, when it comes to being a professional businesswoman like you are, what is one of the best pieces of advice that you've ever received?

Margaret Immink: I would say, and probably a lot of people that you interview say this, but I really do think it's true. And I think, especially for women, is seeking mentors and engaging them and using every connection you make along the way. And it's interesting, at Santa Clara, they actually had a woman in business mentoring program back in 1988.

Mary Killelea: Oh, that's great.

Margaret Immink: Yeah. And I was paired. And at the time, I didn't think much of it. It was just there in career services and somehow, I think it was in the business school, but I got paired with this alumni woman who worked for Bank of America. And she met with me several times. I mean, she was pretty high up at the time. And she even had me shadow her for a day in San Francisco. And she helped me with my resume and career choice. And even though I was not going into banking, she was so helpful as a friend and as just a person who had been there before. And she was volunteering her time to do that. I think it was a new program at the time. But we eventually lost touch. But I think it was a benefit of being a woman at the time and probably helped me see the value early on of women helping women. And I've always thought, I need to do that too. When I ever get to a point where I'm old enough and I've experienced enough to actually help someone, I need to do that because that was so helpful to me at the time.

Mary Killelea: Just a couple more questions. Who has been your biggest inspiration?

Margaret Immink: That's actually a difficult one. I think I've had lots of influences and inspirations in my professional career. But I think the biggest inspiration comes from my sister Colleen, who you might remember.

Mary Killelea: I do.

Margaret Immink: Yeah. And she was in a car accident in 1989, which left her paralyzed and in a wheelchair. And she deals with daily challenges that we all just take for granted. Yet she is one of the most positive and kind people on the planet. I mean, she's the person that lights up the room. If you walk into that room, she lights it up. And on top of that, she's done truly amazing things in her life so far. She was swam on the Olympic team in 96. She started Oregon Adaptive Sports, which is just an amazing organization in Oregon. And she just continually contributes to the people and the world around her. And so, I think she has lots of physical setbacks along the way through all these years. Yet she still looks for new challenges. And whatever she does, whether it's in her professional career or in her personal life, she's always looking for something new. And I really do believe that I've just kept, and she and I are very close, but I have kept always this thought in the back of my mind that if I'm having a bad day or things aren't going right for me, I am continually reminded that it's really not that bad, that she's still smiling, so I need to still smile and it's going to be okay. So I think that's just, it's very sad what happened to her, but it's also very inspirational to myself and my whole family.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for sharing that. So when I say to be bolder, what does that mean to you?

Margaret Immink: Okay, so I would say that it would encapsulate being brave and having courage and confidence to take on a challenge. And whatever that may be, and as a woman, I think we sometimes underestimate our qualifications. I think we do need to sell ourselves and not be afraid to be unique or be authentic. We don't need to fit a certain mold. And maybe this is, especially in technology, I think you can really be whoever you want. And that can work to your advantage. I mean, I even remember this story, and if anyone listens to this who worked with me, then they'd laugh, but way back working in Applied Materials, and I was trying to run the project manager meetings, and we would do a lot of PowerPoints and Excel charts and whatever. And I would use all these pastel colors, they'd be lavender and aqua and light blue and all the guys would laugh. But I would occasionally then wear some of my 90s pastel pantsuits and coordinate with my PowerPoints. And it would just set the mood. They'd almost come into the weekly meeting wondering what color scheme I was going to be going with and what I was going to be wearing. And I think it was just kind of a funny thing that people enjoyed. And they actually listened to me, I think, more because I was matching the PowerPoints or whatever. But anyway, I do think people or women do need to be strong and be brave and take chances and walk into a room and take a deep breath and see what happens along the way.

Mary Killelea: So, what's next for you?

Margaret Immink: That's a good question. So, as I've been saying, I never really thought I was an entrepreneurial kind of person, but I've really enjoyed it. I don't have 10 more ideas, I don't think. And I still really like this idea that this company has done. I think we still have a lot of growth to do here. And we have been approached several times now by venture capital firms or private equity firms who want to buy us. And we go through the process and then we kind of get to the point or at least especially I get to the point of I'm not ready yet. I still really like this. I still think we have a lot to do to grow. And it's kind of a perfect job for me at this time in my life. It's very flexible, and it's exciting, and I like it.

Mary Killelea: All right. So I can't thank you enough. It's been fun catching up. And I can't believe we went to high school together. We reconnected over COVID, group chat, and Zoom call. And we just started talking, and your life is very interesting. Your career is really impressive. So, thank you for joining us today.

Margaret Immink: Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guests. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number two, little b, bolder.com.