Career Growth Advice from Deb Arthur, Criminal Justice Leader | Career Tips for Women in Criminal Justice

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 34
Featuring Deb Arthur

Episode Title: #34 Career Podcast Featuring Deb Arthur, Empowering Change for Women in Prison

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Deb Arthur



Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you. Encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So, sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Hi there. Today on the show, I'm delighted to have Deb Arthur joining us. Deb has a very interesting career journey. She has a BA in religion, a master's degree in black studies with a focus on African American children and youth. She earned a law degree as well. So after law school, Deb moved to Portland where she practiced criminal defense and juvenile law for 10 years, specializing in representing juveniles in adult criminal courts. For the past 17 years, she has been teaching at Portland State University. She received the Civic Engagement Award for Excellence in Community-Based Teaching and Learning from the University and was awarded the Campus Compact Western Region Engaged Scholar Award in 2019 for her work bringing college education and support to incarcerated individuals. She is the founder and director of Portland State University's Higher Education in Prison Program at Coffee Creek Correctional Facility. Deb, wow, what a great career. It's so interesting to me. I'm excited for this conversation.

Deb Arthur (Guest): Oh, thank you. Yeah, I love to talk about the work. So, I'm excited too. Thank you so much for having me.

Mary Killelea: Oh, you're welcome. So let's talk about this, your passion. Looking at your resume and the certain jobs that you've held, it appears that you have a passion for helping others. What drives you to do the work that you do?

Deb Arthur: I've been asked that question before. I think it's just how I was made, Mary. How I've always been. When I was a girl, even as a young child, I was really interested in different people's lived experiences. And I think on some level, although I couldn't really understand it intellectually at that time, I think on some level, I recognized that I carried a certain amount of privilege. And I felt just compelled to sort of try to leverage that privilege to help others who didn't have that same privilege. So, I remember, I don't know, grade school or middle school during a report on throwaway kids and homeless kids. And just a topic that fascinated me. I had a home, a family life, I just thought, how do kids live that way? And I did some research called the National Runaway Hotline to do some, to ask them some questions. And they in turn turned around and called my mom back on that same phone number and said, I think your daughter's going to run away. Which I wasn't, but I was just like, what, what is this experience like? So it's just been, you know, something that, that has been a continuous motivation for me since I was little.

Mary Killelea: So, the curiosity has always been there from your early studies in religion to, you know, looking at the broader community or diverse segments?

Deb Arthur: Yeah, I didn't know I would be a religion major in college. I kind of thought I would probably study social sciences and, and then that was a lot of charts and graphs. And I was really more interested in what makes people tick, like who, how are we supposed to act in the world based on what we believe? So I really was fascinated by the study of different world religions and the moral codes attached to those. And how we're supposed to act and be in the world, kind of the intersection of faith and practice. What am I supposed to do based on what I believe? So, yeah, that was kind of connected to that, to that theme.

Mary Killelea: I love what we're talking about here because so many kids, or I call them kids, so many young adults when they're in college are unclear as to, oh, the pressures of making and deciding what that degree is going to be in or how I can apply that degree to life. I think what you're illustrating is you just aligned yourself with things that meant something to you and then it evolved from there.

Deb Arthur: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's kind of how I've always operated. I think much to my father's dismay. Kind of like, what are you going to do with a degree in religion? I don't know. I just have always felt really that it was really important to follow what it is that moved me. I thought if I'm doing something I don't even really care about, but I think in the end it's going to pay off in some way. I just thought, I don't know, life is short. I want to do what I'm interested in. So I just kind of let that lead me.

Mary Killelea: Was the master's degree essential for where you saw yourself going or was it still more part of that self-discovery?

Deb Arthur: It was definitely part of self-discovery. I don't think it was essential, although I'm tremendously grateful I had the opportunity to do that. I was at The Ohio State University and I was one of very few white students in the program. I went there because I worked for a program in Hartford, Connecticut called Upward Bound. It's actually a national program. There's also one at PSU actually. But in Hartford, so it's a college prep program for low-income high school students and first-generation students. In Hartford, where I was, primarily the students enrolled in the program were black and brown and a couple Vietnamese students and a very few white students. That was my first job out of college as a counselor with Upward Bound. I just realized there's so much I didn't know. I was a teaching assistant in some of the classes and I realized there was so much I did not know. I thought, gosh, I'm a college grad now. I'm a smart young woman. There were all these pieces of history that I wasn't aware of and it's only because no one taught me about it. African American history is part of American history and a lot of it had been left out. I thought, I want to know more about this. I applied for this master's program and got in. I got a fellowship so it didn't cost me anything. I think that was a big part of the decision. Wow, let me take a year and go learn something.

Mary Killelea: What a great opportunity.

Deb Arthur: Yeah, absolutely. A lot of very intense discussions as one of three white students in the program about what was I doing there. I learned a lot and definitely more outside of the classroom than in the classroom.

Mary Killelea: There's a lot of questions that I could go in in that direction. I want to focus on your next step and that is, what motivated you to go into law from there?

Deb Arthur: By that time, I was pretty sure I knew I wanted to be a public defender. In fact, I wanted to be a juvenile defender. I wasn't exactly even sure what that was. I remember seeing a movie that I had seen about young kids that were in detention, which horrified me. I thought, we lock kids up? We lock kids up? I was just horrified. I think that also was part of my emphasis that I chose for my master's on African American children and youth because unfortunately, we know it's true that black and brown kids are definitely overrepresented in the juvenile justice system. The master's degree was almost a precursor to law school knowing that I wanted to focus on being a defense attorney, in particular, for kids.

Mary Killelea: So, stepping back now and going back where you were the minority in your master's program, the lessons that you learned from that framed the course in which you looked at life moving forward, correct?

Deb Arthur: Yeah, in many ways. I think it definitely helped me do a better job at my work. I don't feel like I could work adequately with black and brown people, BIPOC, without understanding their lived experience. I couldn't just drop in and say, hey, I'm your attorney. Let's go and not have any understanding of what their lived experience was. That was really essential. So I definitely had a taste of that, I'll say. There's always way more learning to do, but that year was definitely a taste of that. I remember in one class in my master's program, there were two white women in the program and we looked so different. She was very visibly anti-establishment, dreadlocks. I was like this preppy girl from Connecticut. I was getting A's in this class and I really enjoyed the class and the faculty always called me the wrong name, the name of the other white woman. I was so frustrated. I'm like acing this class. I speak in class, I care about it and you don't know who I am. Just having a little taste of what that felt like, some pretty deep learning.

Mary Killelea: Yeah. So what was law school like?

Deb Arthur: Law school was hard. The first year I trudged through, to be honest, I made just tons of work and not anything I was very interested in. There's a lot of requirements in the first year, property law and civil procedure and things that just you have to get through. But then once I got through that, I was able to branch out more into things I was more interested in. So I took a feminist legal studies course and housing and civil rights and of course all the criminal law cases, classes I could get into and participated in a legal clinic and got to do some practical work and things like that. It was three really difficult classes. I was a very, very, very difficult years of study, but I'm really grateful that I had that experience.

Mary Killelea: What advice would you give someone considering law school or the type of things that they should be asking themselves before taking on that kind of level of commitment?

Deb Arthur: One of the biggest parts of the commitment is the financial commitment. So even when I talk with students now at PSU, it's like, well, what are your motivations? Why do you want to go to law school? Is it because you don't know what to do next? Because that's not a good reason to go. Based on the type of work you want to do, it's important to understand what the salary may or may not be. I think a lot of people think, oh, you're a lawyer, you must make a ton of money. It just sort of goes hand in hand. But I came out, I was a public defender. I made barely any money and I had huge student loans. So, I think it's just important for people that are considering that to really understand what their motivations are and look at the type of law they think they might want to do and make sure it's a good investment.

Mary Killelea: So when you started being a public defender, what was your inspiration for doing that and how hard was it for you to get that job and what challenges did you face in there?

Deb Arthur: Well, my first public defender job was out here in Portland. At the time, the law firm was called the Juvenile Rights Project. So, I went to law school in Connecticut, and that's where I'm from originally. I only took the Oregon Bar because of that law firm, Juvenile Rights Project. It's now called Youth Rights and Justice. It's changed its name. But I learned about this law firm. They were nationally renowned, only represented children at the time. And I thought, that's where I'm going. That's what I want to do. And I flew out here, took the Oregon Bar, flew back and got a job at JRP. And everyone back East was like, nobody from University of Connecticut took the Oregon Bar. Nobody except me. It was like, Oregon, what are you going out there for? But it was because of the Juvenile Rights Project that I moved out here, and that was my first public defender job. And it's because I got to represent kids in court who were facing delinquency charges. That had been my dream, that had been my dream. And there I was. So super cool.

Mary Killelea: What is one of the biggest myths out there for the people that you defend? How are they misunderstood the most?

Deb Arthur: I think based on media consumption and everything else, we tend to look at people who are locked up, juveniles or adults, and completely disregard them. Out of sight, out of mind, and they're bad people. That's sort of the misperception. These are bad people. With very few exceptions, over the 10 years I practiced law, most of the people I represented were very good people. I noticed that right away when I started practicing. It was like, wow, they're but for the grace of God. Just circumstances, lack of resources, these are the things that lead people to act out in ways that are not pro-social. Right? But the people themselves were generally really decent people. I will say there were a couple exceptions to that over the years that I thought, wow, this one person is someone that I would not want walking around the street, that I wouldn't want to run into, I want my kids to run into. But that was really just a small handful of people. Most people that I worked with that were charged with or convicted of crimes or juvenile offenses, really good, basically decent human beings that had really poor circumstances. I think most people don't recognize that. We don't think it all the way through.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, I would agree with that. Your job has such a significant impact on the lives of others. What's been the most challenging about that?

Deb Arthur: I would say it's always work, and I tell my students this too, it's always work to protect myself and keep the boundaries clear. I'm emotionally invested in my work. Those 10 years as a public defender, I didn't have much of a life outside of my work. There were days I came home and cried over some 15-year-old kid that was going to prison. It's really hard work because I do feel passionately about it. Keeping the boundaries and good self-care is an ongoing lesson for me because I care, I want to always do that next thing. Okay, no one else has time to write that grant, I'm sure I can squeeze it in. I'll do it. That has impacts on myself, my family. It's really important. It really is important, not just to give lip service, but to really take breaks, keep the boundaries, turn it off sometimes, go do something completely different. That's been challenging, to take good care of myself in the midst of trying to do this work in the world.

Mary Killelea: That's interesting that you said that because setting boundaries is very difficult for women across most industries to do because the pleasing attitudes, the emotional investment.

Deb Arthur: Yeah, that's a tough one. I definitely feel all of that. Also, I'm an Aries and also I'm an eight on the enneagram. It's like, come on, let's get it done. Stepping back is something I continue to learn about.

Mary Killelea: Over the years, have you ever experienced self-doubt? If so, how did you quiet those voices to forge forward?

Deb Arthur: Yeah, absolutely. I've experienced self-doubt. I don't think I would be human if I hadn't. How do I conquer that? I think I really believe in just doing the next right thing. Sometimes the self-doubt, it creeps in when I look at the big picture. It's like, how am I going to get from here to there? I don't know. Developing a practice of pulling it in and just looking at that one little next thing that I can do. I'm not a huge fan of this little thing, but you've probably heard it, what's the best way to eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Yeah. Sometimes I have a vision and it's really big and I want to get there and I have to, and then the self-doubt creeps in like, I don't know how I'm going to get there. So just pulling in and doing the next right thing in front of me to do, and then I'm just that little bit closer. I think that's been the way I've tried to counter that.

Mary Killelea: That's really good advice. What are you most proud of when you look back on your career?

Deb Arthur: Honestly, I would say that's more recent. Over the past several years, I've been working at PSU to develop this higher education in prison program and we are developing a degree pathway in liberal studies at Coffee Creek Correctional, which is in Wilsonville and it's Oregon's only women's prison. And the men in Oregon's prisons have had access to credit bearing degree granting education for years. And there's not enough of it and not every male in prison has had that opportunity, but the women haven't had the opportunity at all.

Mary Killelea: Wow.

Deb Arthur: And yeah, a little bit shocking and you know, they get occasional class here or there, like an upper division class that someone decides to offer in kind of an inside out format where outside college students come into the prison. And so, there's a little bit of that and there's definitely adult basic ed, GED, career and technical stuff. There's been no higher ed access and in terms of credit bearing degree granting. And you know what, Mary, I just put my head down. I said, I'm making this happen.

Mary Killelea: Wow. That's amazing.

Deb Arthur: Yeah. I mean, that is really what I feel most proud of because so now we have 35 students in the program. We have two different cohorts and to read the papers that these students write, I mean, I'm just floored. Most of them super smart. I mean, we're reading Plato. We're reading Paul O'Farrary. We're reading some pretty intense readings and their eyes are opening up and their worlds are opening up. And wow, it's such a thrill.

Mary Killelea: That's amazing. Okay, so you say I have this vision because I see this lack of resource and this inequity happening here in the prison system, especially for women. Where do you start? Do you go, I'm going to evaluate my resources and my connections and then step one, step two, like how does that happen?

Deb Arthur: Persistence. I mean, I tend to operate more on being accused of being a freight train. I mean, I just kind of go. Doesn't always work. I mean, I'm not a freight train. I mean, I've worked so well in my personal life, but I saw this need. I met up with someone who did similar work in the institution on a community college level. I said, what would this look like? They said, oh, like maybe a 2023 start. And I said, no, this September. I went to the folks I know at PSU, my direct boss at the time, the director of our program. I said, we need to do this. Pell grants are coming back. There's a need that isn't being met. Like I basically nagged until I was finally told, okay, okay, go ahead and do it. Teach a class there. Let's do one class, pilot, see how it goes. You can do it this time. We're not going to pay. There's no, there's no money. You can't do it again. Go find yourself some money, but do it. And so I, I taught a, that last year was the pilot year, 1920 academic year. I taught a 15 credit first year interdisciplinary general ed class and we were off and running. I did get a grant to continue classes for the next couple of years. We constantly hustle for scholarship support for students. But it's happening. Yeah.

Mary Killelea: That's amazing.

Deb Arthur: I kind of did it backwards. Like I started and then I went, oh, we better figure out how we're going to keep doing this.

Mary Killelea: However you get it done, right?

Deb Arthur: Right. Exactly.

Mary Killelea: That's really so something to be proud of. Congratulations on that.

Deb Arthur: Thanks.

Mary Killelea: So what would you tell your 20 year old self if you could have a conversation with you back then?

Deb Arthur: I would tell myself, girlfriend, you are already capable. I think a lot of us tend to, is this sort of, we're sort of programmed to wait till we're prepared.

Mary Killelea: Right.

Deb Arthur: And I tell my students this all the time, like none of us are prepared. None of us know what we're doing. We're all doing the best we can. Like you learn more by experience. The longer I do something, obviously the better I get at it, but you have to start and you're already capable of starting. Young people, even I had a nephew who had just turned 13 and his mom had asked me to write him some advice. I said, you're already ready. Get involved. And I think I didn't fully understand that myself at that time. I was kind of like, well, let me get this done. Let me get that done. Let me prepare, all the nerves that go along with not being ready. I would say just let go of those because you're already ready. That's how you learn.

Mary Killelea: I totally agree. And she probably won't like this, but I'll mention my daughter, sometimes it's like she's waiting for an invitation and I'm like, you want to do it, just go do it. Don't let anyone, don't wait for someone to give you an invitation to do something you already want to do. Make it happen for yourself.

Deb Arthur: Exactly. Exactly. And somehow we're taught, and I'm not sure if it's, it says women that we have to make sure everything's lined up and maybe wait for that invitation. And like, that's not coming, and we're never going to have everything lined up or human. So just go, just go for it.

Mary Killelea: Well, and I hear it a lot at work because I'm in the corporate world, but, you know, failing fast or failing forward is encouraged, which I'm so happy to hear that because I didn't get that growing up. But I think that's such a great lesson. Like, okay, try it. It doesn't work out. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and try something new and take away your learning to move forward.

Deb Arthur: Exactly. Yep. It's all just keep putting one foot in front of the other.

Mary Killelea: What's your favorite thing about teaching?

Deb Arthur: I would say, I kind of look at it a little bit differently teaching students on the PSU campus versus the teaching I do inside incarceration facilities. On the PSU campus, what I love about it is getting to share my passion with other students. I mean, this is, this is the front line coming up. These are the folks that are going to go out and do the work and being able to, I really love being able to connect students with maybe job shadows or most of the students that end up in my classes tend to have some sort of interest in the field of criminal justice or social work, child and family studies, that kind of thing. And just over my career, I've built so many connections so I can say, well, hey, you should talk to this person who does X, Y or Z. I mean, making it real practical for students. I love that part. Like, because most of the students I teach on the PSU campus are seniors and they're starting to look at what am I going to do next? So, all my teaching has been community based, so students are already engaged in the community on some kind of project, but I love making those extra connections for people, because that's what they're super hungry for. Like, they're about to finish and they don't know what they're going to do next. And I enjoy that part.

And then teaching in the prison is just, wow, it's just, what a privilege, because these are students who thought maybe they weren't going to have another chance to get an education and they're hungry for it and they're really hard working and I learn a lot from them. And it's just such a rich learning community. I'm haven't been inside since last March. We've been able to, yeah, super sad. I'm hoping we can get back in soon, but we still, I mean, we're still going, but I haven't been able to be in person and that makes me sad, but we'll get there.

Mary Killelea: What was your best piece of career advice that you received?

Deb Arthur: When I had the period between practicing law and teaching, I was practicing law for 10 years and I kind of knew I was going to need to move on because I was burning out. As much as I loved the work, I thought, well, eventually I'm going to have to have some kind of life. And I thought, what else would I do? And I had no idea. I really didn't know. I started to have set up lunch dates with people who I thought did interesting things and like really tried to think about what would next steps be. And in the course of that sort of exploration, I came across this book on the shelf by a guy named Parker Palmer called Let Your Life Speak. And the title is basically an old Quaker saying, but that book really was all the career advice I ever needed. I highly recommend it. I recommend it to all my students. So Parker Palmer talks about that vocation is a gift, not a goal. And the basic idea is like, take your ego out of it. Stop thinking about what I think I want to accomplish. But instead, like really learn to listen deeply and I already know inside what I'm here to do. And so that's the best advice I've ever received or could give because as long as I keep my ego out of it and keep just trying to fulfill this purpose that I feel inside of me, I know I'm going in the right direction.

Mary Killelea: That's fabulous. I ask everyone this, what does to be bolder mean to you?

Deb Arthur: Mary, I just love what you're doing. I think it's so important to get women's voices out there. Learn about each other, connect with each other, share stories. Yesterday was International Women's Day, choose to challenge the theme for this year. And I just think, I've listened to a bunch of the episodes and it's just been helps me feel like I'm not alone in these struggles that I face that there's a lot of similarities that we come across. I can learn tips and, yeah, it's just a beautiful thing that you're doing.

Mary Killelea: Thank you. I love what I'm doing. And just to your point earlier, put your ego aside and just do what excites you and what motivates you and bringing women like you who are more than willing to take time out of your busy lives and share your story and your lessons. And because so many kids or younger people, even pivoting mid-career, don't know what they don't know. They don't know their options. It's like having a conversation with someone that you wouldn't have had access to. So I'm delighted that I can be a part of that.

Deb Arthur: Yeah, it's really fantastic.

Mary Killelea: So what's what does to be bolder mean to you? It's funny, Mary, in putting all this program together, I've been doing things I never knew I would do. I mean, I just, I was a lawyer and then I was a teacher. And all of a sudden, I'm knocking on Dean's doors, I'm writing grant proposals, I'm giving legislative testimony on the issues that relate to the work that I'm doing. I'm having meetings with prison officials. I have had to train myself to just hit the send button. You know, I'll read over an email to someone who in my mind is important because that's how the world deems them.

Mary Killelea: Right.

Deb Arthur: And I think, oh, gosh, who am I to be writing this? Still these thoughts will go through my mind, right? Like, I shouldn't, like, they don't care who I or how should I just send it, you know. And I'm learning how to do that. I guess that's to be bolder. I'm definitely doing that. And good things are coming.

Mary Killelea: That's exactly what to be bolder is. That's fantastic. What's next for you?

Deb Arthur: I want to keep building this program out, keep pulling the money in. Pell grants for people who are incarcerated were recently restored. There used to be college and prison programs everywhere. It's what you did when you went to prison, right? And then in the early 90s, in the Clinton crime bill, Pell grant eligibility was ended for people in custody and all these college and prison programs shut down in the early 90s. And so, in arguably the best news of 2020, Pell grants were restored. And it'll take a couple years to implement that. But I want to keep building out this program. And then with Pell coming back, a lot of the financial burdens will be eased because students can pay for their tuition with these grants. And then I want to really develop the on-campus aspect of it too, because it's one thing to offer education inside. It's important and fun and makes everyone the better, makes the community safer. But at the same time, we've got to be there for those same students when they get out. Yeah, so I'm kind of turning a bit to look at also developing resources on the PSU campus for formerly incarcerated students. It's definitely a very particular type of lived experience and not everyone's anxious to share about it. And coming back into the community and trying to continue your education when you haven't ever used a laptop or a smartphone is challenging. So, just continuing to pour into this work and the program and making it bigger and stronger. That's kind of what I'm looking at for the next few years.

Mary Killelea: I love it. Just a short time ago, you were looking at how to get students to be students and now you're thinking post-graduation.

Deb Arthur: Yeah, yeah, it's right. And even people who, you know, with COVID and other things going on, I've had a number of students from our program release early, for medical reasons or for clemency or just getting their sentence, they're shortened. And so, then they get ahold of me at my PSU. Hey, Deb, I'm out. What do I do now? So now I'm also now a student advisor and, you know, so those are the resources that we need to have to be ready for people. You can't just go in and leave, right? So I'm committed to seeing it through.

Mary Killelea: Well, thank you for the work that you do, the lives that you impact, and for joining us today. I super appreciate you sharing your story with us. How can someone connect with you?

Deb Arthur: My contact info is on the PSU. You could go to PSU and put in Deborah Arthur and all my contact information is there. And I'm happy to talk with people who are interested in this work. And thank you so much for having me. Like, it's just great to talk about this work and to be part of this movement that you're building where women are supporting each other. So I really appreciate the opportunity.

Mary Killelea: Thank you very much. Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guests. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number 2, little b, bolder.com.