Career Growth Advice from Rhonda Coleman, Corporate Attorney Leader | Career Tips for Women in Corporate Attorney

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 45
Featuring Rhonda Coleman

Episode Title: #45 Career Podcast Featuring Rhonda Coleman, a Successful In-House Counsel and Strategic Advisor to Fortune 500 Corporations – Women In Tech

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Rhonda Coleman



Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you. Encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation.

Hi there. Today's guest is a hardworking, successful businesswoman that has demonstrated resilience throughout her life. Rhonda Coleman is proof that you can pivot in life and do what makes you happy and fulfilled. Rhonda is a lawyer, writer, mother and wife. She is in-house counsel and strategic advisor to Fortune 500 and venture backed corporations. Rhonda lives, works, podcasts and blogs from Chicago. Rhonda, I am so glad you're here. We were recently introduced and I appreciate it is a Saturday and so sharing your time with me on the weekend is really valuable as well as just sharing your story. How did you go from a high school teacher to a corporate lawyer?

Rhonda Coleman (Guest): I love this question. Yes. So in undergrad I majored in English and because that's what I liked in high school. I was good in English. I liked reading and writing. I was like, okay, so I'm going to major in English in college. And then so it's like, okay, so what am I going to do with this English major? And I ended up saying, okay, well, I guess I can prepare to be a teacher because that's a nice career to fall back on and entertained the idea of being a lawyer at the end of my four years of college. Like got material to prepare for the LSAT and all of that. And I was just like, I'm not really ready for this. I think this is going to be more reading, a bigger commitment than I'm ready for. So I'm going to teach for a while and see where that takes me.

So that's how I became a teacher and I liked it. I was good at it. I did it for 10 years. I enjoyed my students very much. Kind of you get a new set of kids every year, new personalities. They're wonderful. You're more than their teacher. You're their mentor. They're confidant a lot of times, but it is draining. And so during this 10 years, I married, I had two children of my own. I was an entrepreneur at heart in my summers. I liked the teacher schedule too. That was good. So, in my summers, I would kind of operate many entrepreneurial ventures of mine. And I realized that I enjoyed that. I liked building a business, but I didn't know much about it. Teaching began to be draining. I gave a lot of myself to my students, but I didn't get anything, I didn't get enough back in return intellectually. So, I can only teach adjectives and verbs and pronouns and Romeo and Juliet so many ways, but I wanted to feed my soul more. So it ended up being law. And so I took a semester off of teaching. I prepared for the LSAT. I applied to law school because that's a full-time job. And then I got into Loyola Chicago first, and I liked Chicago. And so I picked Chicago. I wanted my professional degree to be in a major metropolitan area with a strong legal community. Chicago had all of that. So, yep.

Mary Killelea: What an amazing story. So a couple of things. I'm curious what were some of those summer entrepreneur things, because I'm at the heart, definitely an entrepreneur. And whenever there's almost I have to turn my brain off because there's always some creative ideas. So let me hear some of the summer things that you did.

Rhonda Coleman: Yeah. So one big thing I did was a book, the Magic Giraffe Bookshop is what I called it. And so I would take a book, a children's book, and I would bring it to life. So I would pair things with a book that the child could connect with as they were reading the book. And that was a hit. You know, I did trade shows. I also made childrens hair accessories because I'm very crafty. So I did that and would sell them to shops and boutiques in my area. So, yep, those are the two of the big things that I can remember.

Mary Killelea: That's amazing. I love it. So dealing with corporate clients versus kids, definitely as far of the spectrum as you can go, tell me about those two worlds and how that transition was.

Rhonda Coleman: When you deal with corporate clients and when you sales people, you know, in my case right now, you do as a lawyer, you do a lot of educating teaching as you do with students, teenagers, teenagers require lots of patience, as do corporate clients and sales people, because oftentimes they're narrowly focused, their goal, this is what they want. This is what they're coming to me for. And with my sales people that I support, obviously, it's getting a deal and making money. So a narrow focus, right when they come to me, just like a teenager. A teenager kind of narrowly focused, they're very egocentric. And so I learned not to take that personally. And I've gotten developed an ability to be objective. And you don't hurt my feelings. So I've definitely taken that patience is the big thing. I get that feedback from my clients all the time, that Rhonda just has a lot of patience, she's calm, objective, very strategic.

Mary Killelea: Your story is such a good example of seeing how you can transition your skills that terminate to you plus the skills that you had in your previous career and pivoting into a new role and not letting that be a roadblock, but actually letting it be your strength.

Rhonda Coleman: Yes, I think that that is super important and something that I have almost kind of been forced, a skill I've been forced to develop the ability to pivot the ability to take my skill set from one role a position and see how it can apply to something else. So, when I went like I went to law school, I was just like, I often tell people that I was just so naive, I think I was just so excited to be in law school and learning all this new stuff, this new information. I underestimated how difficult it was going to be to find a job right afterwards. And I because I came in with my education experience and education background. And it's a different world from the corporate world and the legal world on top of that, and in a completely different city. So, I did not have a job when I graduated from law school, like when I was studying for the bar, and I had applied everywhere. And I ended up having to do document review. And I don't know if you have a legal background at all people out there and podcast world. That's not your dream. When you go to law school is to be a document review attorney. I saw myself in a law firm at first, I saw myself as a corporate in house lawyer.

So I kind of was met with all of these blocks. So for instance, okay, so okay, I'm going to be I'm going to work in a law firm. And then I quickly realized, oh, if you're going to work in a law firm, that means you got to be able to work 70 hours a week. I had a first grader and third grader. I started law school. So what were they like third and fifth grade or so when I graduated, I couldn't do that. And I was a single parent, divorced. So I'm like, okay, so that's not going to work. So okay, I'm going to work in a corporation, because then I can do more of a nine to five type of structure. Then they told me, well, you got to work in a law firm first before we'll hire you. You got to have that experience. So I'm at a catch 22. Right. So I'm like, okay, so what am I going to do? So I did document review, continue to network and apply. And then, so then I realized, okay, coming in as a contractor versus a full time employee is okay. I still get the experience of working there. So I said, okay, so I had to open my mind up to that. That's something that document review gave m understanding the benefit of being a contract employee. So a friend called me, she goes, I need you to come in, victim network, and work on this project with me. She was the only lawyer in the building. And I said, sure.

So I got my first real legal job in the door, via networking and being open to being a contract employee. And it kind of just spiraled from there. Big 10, when I hit the ceiling after two years, I felt like I wanted more. I wanted to work with more lawyers and not be the only lawyer in the building. And so I was, somebody told me, hey, you can be a contract employee via this organization called Axiom, they'll put you in some of the biggest corporations in the world, you get that experience, it's great. And at the same time, you can continue to build this entrepreneurial part of me, which I had never let go. And at the time, because I was working in sports at a sports TV network, my husband is a historian, he was writing a book about the history of chess. So, we ended up at the chess club in St. Louis. And the manager of the club wanted to know what I did. I said, well, I'm a lawyer and I work in sports entertainment. And she was like, well, we are on a mission to push chess into mainstream US culture as a spectator sport. Can you help us do that? And I said, I just told you I'm a lawyer. I work around this stuff. And she said, Well, can I call you on Monday? This was a weekend and she called me. And I told her like how I would do it if I were them. And she says, put a proposal together. And I said, okay, and I put the proposal together, presented it to the group of people that she asked me to present it to and they liked me and they hired me to consult for them.

So there are lots of things in that story. One, I saw an opportunity when I was open to doing something that wasn't necessarily catered or slated for a lawyer. Right. And I was open to not clocking the nine to five in the traditional way. And so that experience, like working with the chess club led me to an opportunity to manage the number two highest rated professional chess player in the world, Fabiano Caruana. So, I managed him for a year and I'm at Google now and my Google colleagues who play chess and there are tons of them, as you can imagine, they're like floored when I tell them that I managed Fabiano Caruana. For me, it was a project. It was a job. I got to do this. I got to get this done. Make sure this kid, you know, does X, Y, Z. I wasn't a chess fan, but for them, it's like, oh my God, you managed Michael Jordan. So it's helped me. Yes. Helped me professionally and in an indirect kind of way.

Mary Killelea: What a great story there. And like you said, there are a lot of lessons or examples of resilience in there. So, thank you for sharing that. And when you said chess, the first thing that I thought of was Queen's Gambit. I don't know if you've ever seen that show, but yes, talking about taking it mainstream.

Rhonda Coleman: Exactly. No, that's a really, really good depiction of what the life of a chess player is like, like absent the drug abuse and all that, that drama in the movie, but playing the tournament, the camaraderie, you know, it being super serious, it's a serious sport and it is lucrative. People make money from it. Yeah, I would say it's a good depiction of what it's like to be in that world.

Mary Killelea: You also mentioned that obviously having your children was what helped kind of frame what direction you were going to take with your career because you wanted to be that present mom. What advice do you have for working moms?

Rhonda Coleman: My big piece of advice is to get rid of limiting beliefs, those that are within you and those that come from outside of you that tell you, you cannot accomplish this because you have kids or you can't do it this way because you have kids. Get rid of all of that. Cause if I had listened to that, I would not have ended up at some of the best companies in the world as an in-house attorney. I just would not have accomplished much of what I have accomplished. And set your priorities, you know what I mean? So your children are, for most of us, are number one priority and really identify what it is you want to do for them, what kind of life you want them to have and start there. And everything else, you know, will fall into place. I knew that I want my children, wanted my children to be well-educated. I knew that I wanted them to feel safe and supported. I knew that I wanted them to have opportunities to accomplish whatever it is they wanted to do in this world, whether it was to be the president of the United States or a chef in a restaurant, whatever it is you want to do, I want to make sure I am providing you with an environment and a network to make that happen. And then everything flows from that. Yes, my goal is to be a successful attorney. Like that was my first goal when I started on this second career journey. But I don't want that more than I want my children to feel safe. And then it becomes easy.

Mary Killelea: Right. Well, and I think the role modeling that we as working moms do have such a greater impact than I think we realize when we're living in the moment. But when you're making decisions to say yes to opportunities and then being able to shape them, maybe not having those discussions now, but later in life, you can have this conversation or they listen to this someday. It's this type of role modeling that I think is so important for any working mom to let go of guilt, but just to have the confidence that you're doing the best you can.

Rhonda Coleman: Yes, yes. And your best is always enough. I don't care what anybody says. Yeah. I don't care what anybody says. I am doing and I am going through this executive coaching, like 12 week executive coaching program with a fabulous coach, Anjali Garg, A-N-J-L-I-G-A-R-G. I recommend her to anybody on the planet.

Mary Killelea: Thank you.

Rhonda Coleman: So I'm learning about these external limiting beliefs that are created for us, that kind of that we own and that keep us from reaching our goals. For instance, and so I'm learning to go within and kind of figure out what my own personal definition of success is and letting that drive me and letting that be enough and making some amazing discoveries. So being in the C-suite, I thought that that was my definition of success. You know what I mean? But no, when I think about it, that's what the world has told me. If you have that, you're successful and push, push, push, and push, push to get that, but they keep kind of moving it. They keep moving the bar and creating this environment or culture where I have to compete. Everybody's competing, competing, competing to get there. But if you stop and you go within and you figure out really dig deep and what do, what does Rhonda think it means to be successful? And I did this exercise with my coach and what came up for me was being a mom, being a wife, being a sister, being a daughter, being a friend, those relationships, having those relationships and those strong relationships was my core definition of success. So, anything that I do in life that jeopardizes or harms those relationships, particularly the mother one, is not going to do much for me. It's not going to help me grow. It's not going to benefit me. It's not my path that I should walk, no matter what anybody else says. So I'm learning that and it's very liberating.

Mary Killelea: Yes, I imagine.

Rhonda Coleman: And trusting that, kind of anchoring myself and my decisions to what my inward definition of success is, is going to be enough to take me much farther than that external one.

Mary Killelea: Let's talk about self-worth or financial worth and establishing your worth, especially like when you mentioned the woman gave you the opportunity to kind of go create a proposal and come back to us with that. How did you shape it so that you were growing financially and challenging yourself intellectually? Take us through that process, if you would.

Rhonda Coleman: Yes, yes, because I know as women, we undervalue ourselves all the time and I see it like when I work with my male counterparts or male mentors, I worked at a law firm for a minute and both of my mentors in the firm were men. And I would see how when we would get a client and he would just state his hourly rate like without a blink of an eye and expect to be paid and they would pay it. And I would be to myself like, oh my God, that's so expensive. He's charging 500 bucks an hour and I feel bad about charging them 350.

Mary Killelea: I don't know why we do it, but we do it.

Rhonda Coleman: I don't know why we do it. I don't know why we do it. And it definitely has taken kind of a community of women, like a conference as this conversation that we're having now about your worth and your value, hearing other people's stories saying, ask for what you want, kind of educating you or me through these conversations on, yeah, whatever you ask for, what you think you're going to ask for, go higher than that. Whatever they offer you, ask for more. You know what I mean?

Mary Killelea: Yeah.

Rhonda Coleman: So getting that type of education. So I certainly did not. I feel like I know I think I'm kind of there actually asking for what I'm worth.

Mary Killelea: Good for you.

Rhonda Coleman: Yeah, I think I'm kind of there. But yeah, no, I think having an just people teaching me like another one of my friends, the one who recommended Axiom to me, she says, I think women should have open conversations about how much we make.

Mary Killelea: Absolutely.

Rhonda Coleman: Yeah. And so she would tell me how much she made and that I was just like, oh my God, I'm not making enough. I'm not asking for enough. And yeah, even negotiating my salary with my current employer was actually new for me because it's tech, it's big tech, and it's more money to be had. And the negotiating and it's different, right? So coming from, I say, talk to somebody, in that industry about what people are making so that you are empowered when you go into a conversation. And so with the consulting, you kind of weigh it like, is this opportunity going to help me get to where I'm trying to go? Like, what's the value in taking this opportunity to get to where I want to go? Obviously, when you're working with a nonprofit versus a corporation, the budgets are different. So, you factor that in. But I do think you should set the value of your work. So, you're very clear on what you should be making and then make a choice. Am I going to choose to make less? Because this is serving me in another way. Am I going to choose to give this for free? You're making the choice, but you feel empowered to make that choice. You know, I mean, that's something else I've learned through coaching. It's kind of like we always have a choice. And as long as you are making the choice, you're still in the driver's seat, you're in charge because you can make a different choice. You can say, no, I don't want this choice anymore. You know, I've been pulled over here for twice as much.

Mary Killelea: What are you most proud of when you reflect on your career?

Rhonda Coleman: I am most proud of managing to raise two, now three, because I have a bonus baby, my son, step son, incredible children who are healthy and balanced and on a good path. And at the same time, do the same thing for myself by pursuing my law degree and building a career and not being afraid of the challenges that both of those things, doing both of those things at the same time brought, but looking at the challenges more as opportunities, opportunities to grow, opportunities to pivot, to do something different, to learn, to expand. So I'm most proud of that.

Mary Killelea: That's great. Tell us about your podcast. Who's it for? What's the topics?

Rhonda Coleman: Yes. So podcast is a passion project. I've had friends and it's the audience is professional women. I've had friends who told me in the past, hey, Ronda, you should write a book about how to raise great kids or write a book about gifted kids. Cause I worked with the chess player. And so I was like, you just write, just start writing. And I said, okay. So, I got to a point where I felt like I had a lot within me, like that I wanted to share because I've had some really great experiences and overcome lots of challenges in my life. And I was just ready to share that with the world. And I said, all right, so this friend who was a writer, she says, just start writing. So it's like, okay, so maybe a blog. And I go to, I can't even remember the platform that my podcast, my website is hosted on, but I went looking for templates and the template was blog plus podcast. I was like, okay, so this is pretty, I'll use this one. And yeah, another friend is like, you have a good radio voice, maybe you can look into doing radio work or something. I was like, radio work? Like what are you talking about? But then I saw this template, I was like, okay, podcasting. I was like, okay, that could be something. And I thought podcasting would be the second thing. And the blogging would be at the forefront, but it happened the other way around. This is just happenstance, right? Podcasting was at the forefront and the blogging was in the background, but this is fun. So anything fun for me, I'm just going with it, like no stress, no tension. I'm just going with it.

I felt compelled like to have conversations with women, professional women about things that we are, we deal with, we go through. I wanted to put the message out there. You can do whatever you want to do. Like, do not let anybody tell you that because you have kids or because you're pivoting from another career or because you're supposed to be a lawyer or a doctor, you can't change to go and be a journalist, like Soledad O'Brien. So, I wanted women to know you can do whatever you want to do, change your mind or not. It's your choice. You can have the life you want and still have a healthy family. And so I started it and it's going well, I’ve had several guests, wonderful, beautiful women. They feed and pour into me. I lift them up, put them on a pedestal because I think that's so important. And together we send out some great stuff to the world, the listeners.

Mary Killelea: I love that because like you, this is my passion project. And this was designed to help others, but I get so much out of it. And so it's just the win-win. Okay. We're going to shift to the rapid fire section.

Rhonda Coleman: What would you tell your 20 year old self? Don't marry that man, girl. No, I'm kidding. Not really. Date him. Don't marry him. That's what I would tell my 20 year old self. And I would tell my...

Mary Killelea: That's so good.

Rhonda Coleman: Yes. Yeah.

Mary Killelea Who inspires you and why?

Rhonda Coleman: Anybody who is so Gwyneth Paltrow, she's one of my sheroes, Kerry Washington, another one of my sheroes. I feel like they're authentic. Gwyneth Paltrow with her Goop project, she is all about doing three things well. You know, she wants to engage with people and entities that are doing something positive, that she gets something good from it. She takes this good thing when she's kind of vetted and tried it and she shares it with the world. And then she takes their organization or project or whatever they're doing and puts them on a pedestal and promotes them. So, she's doing three things that I want to do. That's kind of one of my longterm goals with the podcast is to grow and develop it into something even more.

Mary Killelea: What does to be bolder mean to you as our last question?

Rhonda Coleman: I think it means to speak up, not just for yourself as a woman, but speak up on behalf of other women and for me, other women of color. And it will make a difference. It will make a difference. I've seen it happen for myself when you speak up for other women. People pay attention. People pay attention and listen. And I think that's important.

Mary Killelea: Thank you. Thank you for being here. How can people get in touch with you?

Rhonda Coleman: You can find me at rondaColeman1del.com and that's where you'll find my website, my podcast posts, my blog posts.

Mary Killelea: Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.

Rhonda Coleman: Thank you so much, Mary. I had a good time.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guests. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number 2, little b, bolder.com.