Career Growth Advice from Jennifer Greenberg, Personal Development Leader | Career Tips for Women in Personal Development

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 56
Featuring Jennifer Greenberg

Episode Title: #56 Career Podcast Featuring Jennifer Greenberg, a woman who helps others find clarity in life and translate success by metrics

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Jennifer Greenberg



Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you, encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Today on this show is a dedicated woman who wants to be remembered as a good person who helped others achieve what matters to them. Jennifer Greenberg's career experience is vast and broad and has ranged from education, nonprofit, the rare disease space, and leadership. Currently, she balances a few hats. She manages a consultancy in rare disease drug development, overseeing projects that span stakeholder groups. In addition, she is an adjunct professor at Portland State University, teaching undergraduate business strategy and consulting. She is trained in basic meditation and game storming visual facilitation. She helps leaders and their teams achieve success through her facilitation and coaching practices. Having completed an MBA in 2019, Greenberg is a lifelong learner who values connection, self-actualization, and the power of authenticity. Jennifer, thank you for joining us. It's so nice to have you here this afternoon.

Jennifer Greenberg (Guest): Hey, Mary. Thanks for having me.

Mary Killelea: Of course. Okay, so as I mentioned in the intro, your experience is vast and broad. Tell us about your career journey and what has driven the diverse areas of interest that you have.

Jennifer Greenberg: Yeah, that's a great question, Mary. I mean, happenstance, right? I'm definitely, I think one of the things I look back and I think about my career journey and I think about how weird and random it has been and how it was a response to what was happening at that moment, what my needs were at the moment, what my learning journey was at the moment, a little bit of what was happening in the environment around me. All of a sudden, you have two small kids and you have to adjust and some luck, really. So I'm just, okay, look what's in front of me. I'm going to jump in. What I think has been really key though within that, because that's actually kind of a disorienting feeling, right? There are times when I've stopped and I've looked at all the different from teaching high school and running huge events to now jumping into drug development space, nonprofit work. It looks disparate until you really sit back and say, okay, how can I thread all this together? What are the common things that have gone, come through this? And what have I learned at each point that I can carry intentionally with me into the next spot? And without that, I think we can feel a little bit lost, especially when I was sitting there at age 45, looking back saying, oh, who the hell does this make me? Right?

Mary Killelea: I love that. And that requires self-reflection and not everyone is good at self-reflection. Right. What advice do you have for those who either that makes them uncomfortable or they don't know where to start?

Jennifer Greenberg: Yeah, that's a great question because I think we sometimes just put our nose down and keep going. And we're wondering, we wonder how to self-reflect, right? Or the swirl of activity around us kind of takes over. And perhaps instead of self-reflection, we find ourselves caught in anxiety or worry and self-reflection. So this is coming from somebody with a lot of, with a high drive and a good amount of anxiety. Self-reflection really comes out of a process of teaching yourself how to slow down and look and both look analytically. Okay. So let's talk about the skills that I did learn here. Right. Let's talk about exactly what I picked up from this area of my life, whether it's your career or your whole life. And then also that centering and awareness and getting in touch with who you are on the inside and your internal state. So I think the two of those things together are really what can bring us to a point where we're understanding our journey a lot better and be ready to look toward the future.

Mary Killelea: How do you avoid the self-analyzing of not living up to what society says you should be or your paycheck should be?

Jennifer Greenberg: The big one, huh? That's a big one. I'm here because of the other amazing women in my life, period. Right. And when I think about who I am and who I am here in my life, I'm here because of the people who I've surrounded myself with, who have encouraged me, and who have been such kick-ass rock stars in their own right. And it's a process, right? It's a process and it takes, I think it really takes finding the right supports around you. One of the reasons why I was inclined to pursue leadership coaching is because we're all doing hard things where we're overcoming our inner story. Right? Every leader is, every team member is, every individual is. I happen to focus on leaders and leaders overcoming their hard challenges. But that's really the first step. What is it that's happening inside and what is it that you're telling yourself? And shame really comes up, can come up really big. And I think you really have to address it. I have a brilliant friend. Can I name drop?

Mary Killelea: Sure.

Jennifer Greenberg: Okay. Heather Clydesdale. She's just this amazing PhD, art history expert professor who, she's one of the people who's really inspired me by pursuing her PhD before I went back from my MBA. And I remember she had this little tool where she said there's this voice that I keep hearing. You can't do this. You can't finish this PhD. It's so hard. And she said, so I decided to draw it. So I drew that little character, that little naysayer, and I put it on the wall and I can look at it. And when I hear that voice, it's right there. It's that ugly little creature that I drew. And I can see that it's not, that it's outside of me. It's inside you, but it's also, you can really characterize it. And that's actually just a very concrete tool that I've used in a lot of times. I've taken that. It was probably 10 years ago. She said that I've taken that with me and carried it with me, something we can all do. All right. Let's name that voice. Let's give it a little drawing.

Mary Killelea: That's fantastic advice. Sometimes I even think those little voices or talk tracks come out in our dreams. In fact, I had one the other day and I was behaving in a way that I know is not who I want to be.

Jennifer Greenberg: In your dream or in real life?

Mary Killelea: My dream. And so I had the awareness to say, oh, I don't like that. I mean, that could be a whole nother show we could analyze. But it's important.

Jennifer Greenberg: But that's important. And it's interesting that you were able to, like, what I'm curious, what was it about the self-awareness in your dream that felt important to you?

Mary Killelea: Oh, I think, and this is going to sound crazy and I'm just going to say it. I don't know who all listens to this, but it was like literally, okay, I'm going to really be vulnerable here. Like I had just watched a Brad Pitt movie and was dreaming about Brad Pitt. And somehow I was like wanting him so much to like me. And then I lost like, no, he would be lucky, lucky to know me instead of just shifting that. Oh, please see me in the way I want you to see me instead of being who I am to kind of draw or attract.

Jennifer Greenberg: Yeah. So the dream was, it sounds like you were really, you had a shift in your dream where you realized that it's not about chasing after, so to speak, what other people think, but just that, that, no, I'm fully present and worthy in how I'm showing up, Brad Pitt.

Mary Killelea: I really just watched Moneyball earlier, so that's the only one. I'm happily married.

Jennifer Greenberg: Who doesn't dream about Brad Pitt? Come on.

Mary Killelea: Oh, God. But no, I think as a younger woman, I did play that role. And now who I am today, I'm not that same young woman.

Jennifer Greenberg: Right. Right. How do we, how have you gotten to that point? Like what are your, when you look at what, what's the recipe in your life where you've gotten to that point where you're like, ah, I'm not, I'm more, I'm so much closer to who I want to be now, who I imagine my best self could be. Like what, what got you there, Mary?

Mary Killelea: I would say self-discovery, constant growth mindset, interviewing amazing women like you starting this podcast, broadening who's in my life, who are my role models, what they're learning, what their learnings are and really being open to what outwardly things I'm saying is that who is that true to who I think I am and to self-correct those tracks, internal or external, when I hear them happening.

Jennifer Greenberg: That can be hard to do, right? Yeah. The self-correction. It's so ingrained. It can be so ingrained in us to, it can be so ingrained in us as women to whether it's demure or not acknowledge our feeling or please somebody else. I mean, there's so, there's a host of such a host of habits that come out that are ingrained that I think can, can either bring us closer to who we really want to be, right? Or, or pull us away from. Oh, it's, it's interesting. It sounds like what I hear you say resonates in that kind of that constant checking in on that, both that internal state, but then being able to be a bit of a fly on the wall and watch yourself and say, yeah, that's, yeah, I showed up how I want to show up. Right. That right.

Mary Killelea: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Let's, let's, we're going to circle back to the, I don't get to interview you. I'm getting all red. Okay. You teach undergrad business in a world.

Jennifer Greenberg: I love it.

Mary Killelea: I love it. Yeah. I mean, that sounds amazing, but the world today requires an enormous amount of resiliency for all of us, but you're looking at undergraduate, what are you teaching them and what have students taught you about resilience?

Jennifer Greenberg: Yeah, it's just such an important question. And it goes back to, I think that, that just, that, that name naming it, right? Where are we right now? That ever important job of naming our current state and both our internal current state, how you're feeling on the inside, but also our external current state. And there's business tools for that. As a matter of fact, I ran a workshop for individuals who are wanting to use business tools to better understand their life path and you start by what's happening around me right now. Right. And so in business, we look a lot in the strategy class I take, I teach or the organizational behavior class I just taught. We look at a lot of what's happening in our, in our environment. So right now, I mean, we got COVID, we have supply chain issues. We have, we've had this disruption, we've had social change and that can feel very overwhelming to people. As a matter of fact, I, I like to connect with my students about what they're actually experiencing in their life and in their job life, and then relate it back to the, back to both our external environment and, and what, and just, and just name what's happening right now as we all move forward.

And so one little way that we can do this is say, look how amazing this is, like, let's reframe it a little bit, right? Look how amazing this is that you are living through change. Right. You know, Roger Martin, the business guru said that this is the most disruptive period of consumer behavior since World War II. Our behaviors are changing and that's huge. And so for students to realize that they're in the midst of that and yeah, that's going to feel weird and destabilizing, but I think naming it and seeing it and seeing that you're moving through it is what builds resilience. It reminds me of doing those, like, I mean, I hate stomach crunches or whatever, right? Not a big fan, but when I'm the rare chance I'm doing them, I know that I'm getting stronger and it doesn't feel like it. It feels more like this sucks, but I'm actually getting stronger. And so recognizing that and naming that is a big part of that process.

I remember talking to somebody who was a financial evaluator in the middle of the boom. She was young, a young person at the time, young woman in a male industry in the, in the middle of Silicon Valley. And they're all looking at each other saying, what is going on? And then to look back and say, wow, I lived through that. And so I think that in some way we're all in that moment right now. And I like to remind my students of that.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, no, I definitely think I appreciate living through this versus looking on the outside and reading it in a book because while, while hard and, and definitely some sad losses, the, that positive that you can take away from just the change and the self-discovery through being uncomfortable is really incredible. And to see the awakening really across the country, across the world, especially in the US around working and what, what people will accept and how they're redefining balance in their life. That is so beautiful.

Jennifer Greenberg: Right. It's, it's powerful. We have a real shift of social constraints and the constraints we've put on ourselves. And we have, and we have people, you're right exactly across the country saying, I'm not, I'm not doing this anymore. So this is not worth it. And on the other hand, we have a situation where we're really questioning the legitimacy of the corporation and that could be good, but that's also destabilizing because we're, we're built upon that's our foundation as a structure, right. In this, in this country. So a lot of moving parts, a lot, a lot of intellectually interesting things, and then a lot, but then also recognizing that, that those moving parts, those changes can really affect us and how do we, how do we take care of ourselves and see ourselves as gaining strength in the midst of it, of it all.

Mary Killelea: You provide leadership coaching. What is your methodology for goal setting and problem solving?

Jennifer Greenberg: Yeah. Goal setting. Well, my, my methodology is really… So coaching is a process of standing next to somebody looking out at the horizon. And as I've increased the amount of my time that I'm coaching, I'm realizing that realizing that it's crucial to take off the consulting hat, because I also do a lot of consulting. And so in coaching that, that consulting hat comes off and you're shifting from a somebody who's telling to somebody who's listening and asking. And that can be really hard as somebody who loves telling, right. But it's where the, the power comes from in, for the, for the person who's being coached, right. Cause they're in charge, they're setting the direction. So in terms of methodology, I think it's simple. It's being very open about the fact that we're trying to get somewhere. We're trying to do something to define where we're trying to get. And I'm going to, you know, we're going to ask a lot of questions and investigate that.

Mary Killelea: I'd love to talk about your guided workshops. In doing some homework here, I looked at your website and you know, you have designing your future, pathfinding for project teams, alignment across organizations, leadership voice and co-lab lab. Tell us, tell us a little bit about each and is there like a reoccurring theme?

Jennifer Greenberg: Yeah. So I think as opposed to going into details on each, I'll just kind of give an over, an overarching. So, a big part of the work that I've done as I, as I sat back and I said, okay, what are all these disparate things that I've done over the course of my career? It really all started, my foundation was in leading wilderness trips back in my young 20s. And I, I, I wouldn't be the same had I not done that. And I think everything that I've taken away from every position and every job and every activity and every piece of work that I've done since then has really, I can look back and say, oh yeah, I can see how this was like that those wilderness trips where you're taking a group from point A way over there to point B and in between there's lakes and mosquitoes and rocks and personal hardship and the need to pull together as a team and the need to really be your strongest and best, but also be your, be your most open. And so in a way, these, all of these workshops, which are all custom to the audience, so they can, they can borrow bits and pieces from each other. They all go back to that. What is it that we need to write, be aware of and know how to do in order to really succeed in what we have in front of us.

I teach a lot about how teams, collaboration in teams, is something that I focus on very much in all of these workshops and with the leaders that I work with. But think about how teams need a purpose. They need a direction. They need a very clearly defined purpose. Teams need, great teams need norms. They need ways that they agree to behave together. They need metrics. How are we going to measure success? What does it look like? What does it look like from a business perspective? Right? Like what numbers do we have to hit? Great teams need communication, and they need communication skills that flow both between each other, but also the outside world, but the market around us and our other key stakeholders, you know, everybody else that this, that this project, that this effort touches and great teams need continuous improvement. That's the fifth ingredient, continuous improvement. And so teams need to know how to, how to keep getting better. And that's an active pursuit. So in all of these workshops, depending on who comes to them and what their needs are, these are the kinds of ingredients that feed into it. Whether it's multiple stakeholders that we're aligning toward a shared purpose or whether it's a project team that's kicking off and needs to be able to do something really, really hard and really big, and let's define how we're going to get there and what that looks like.

Mary Killelea: That sounds fascinating. Let's talk about emotional intelligence. How do you define it and why is it important to understand what it is and how to build and practice it?

Jennifer Greenberg: Yeah. So emotional intelligence, I kind of go with a classic definition. That's a, like a, a Goldman definition of emotional intelligence. That really has to do with, with, with how in touch you are with yourself and then how in touch you are with your influence on others and managing others. And within that, it can get really nuanced, right? There's a lot of different aspects of that, a lot of different skills that we draw upon, but at its most as root, it's knowing ourselves inside, knowing our internal state. How do you feel on the inside? It's a cheesy question, but it's a great one to notice and ask. Knowing that and then taking that to your physical state. I was sitting the other day and I was realizing as I was talking to somebody, my hand was clenched. I thought, Oh, oh, interesting. My hand is clenched. Okay. Let's loosen that up a little bit. And, you know, what's that about, right? And being a little curious about that. Not self-judgy, but curious. And then, and then how you're coming across, right? How others see you and then and then starting to be able to model others as well. It's that reading the room. And there's a lot of nuanced skills that you can build, build within that. And it takes time.

I remember once I was sitting and having glass of wine with a friend of mine and we were at some wine shop and I was, it was a new friendship and I was so excited because I was making a new friend and we were talking, talking, talking. And I was like, Jennifer, you're talking a lot. Like I thought this inside myself was sort of like your dream. Like, Hey, and I thought, okay, okay. Noted. I think I'll stop talking, ask a question and see what happens. And that's how habits changes, right? It's like, I want to, I see myself, I want to, I want to be more effective. I want to do this differently. Let's name the little thing that you can change. Let's not beat ourselves up when we catch ourselves doing it. And then, and then practice, try it out.

Mary Killelea: I love it. How do you define success?

Jennifer Greenberg: Oh man, that's a hard one, right? Well, it's what other people think.

Mary Killelea: That's how we're conditioned.

Jennifer Greenberg: It's hard to get away with that. Away from that.

Mary Killelea: Right. Yeah.

Jennifer Greenberg: I mean, I could be really dishonest and be like, uh, sits that internal sense of whatever, but I, you know, I don't know. It's here's the hard part. I don't, you've probably done different assessments like the Myers-Briggs or strengths finders or right. So in both strengths finders and recently I did an Enneagram achiever came up as two of the top ones. And I'm like, Oh, I think that might be biting me on the butt sometimes. So, let's go back to self-awareness, right?

Mary Killelea: Right.

Jennifer Greenberg: Like how do we need to, how do we define success? Because if we're not careful, we will use so many external measures. I remember a great talk that Tichelle Sorensen, who's the director of the Portland state MBA program. And when I talk about just learning from other people, she is absolutely somebody who I've watched and learned from a great deal of our learning is from watching others, right. And watching how they lead. And she's somebody I've learned a tremendous amount from in that, in that way. And, and, and also through conversations with her, she's awesome. I remember she stood up in front of a, one of our classes. I think we were talking about, something different, like legal things or something. I don't know. She said in MBA land. And she said, you know, it's really important to understand your measuring stick. And she said, you know, everybody has a different measuring stick and just understanding and knowing what it is, is important. And for some of us, it might be money, right? It might be dollars per hour. And I don't think we need to get down on ourselves about that.

Mary Killelea: I agree. Yeah, no, I totally agree. But, but I love this whole conversation keeps kind of circling back around self-awareness. And I just love that we're having this conversation because I think it's so important for people to be self-aware in order to grow.

Jennifer Greenberg: Right. Yeah. But where you said, like you said, where does it start? Right. Where does it start? And that's the challenge. What in your, how have you, as you've become part of your, your like more into yourself at this stage in your life, like how has your self-awareness increased? Like, have you looked for, like do you have tools that you've used?

Mary Killelea: Oh, I think I'm just constantly asking questions, watching leadership, like consciously watching leadership, seeking out Ted talks, just surrounding yourself with things that you're attracted to, not necessarily the person, but maybe some things that they represent or something that they do that, that sits well or brings a smile or says, yeah, I'd like to emulate that, but not in a jealous way, but more of a how to give more to the world of, of that essence.

Jennifer Greenberg: Yeah. Seeing how other people do it.

Mary Killelea: What drives you?

Jennifer Greenberg: Self-actualization. I mean, I think that I always joke that if I had a tattoo on my shoulder, it'd be Maslow's hierarchy, but it's a real thing, right? Like, how can we, how can we reach our full potential that, that saying of there's the two days in your life, the day that you're born and the day you find out why.

Mary Killelea: Now that's powerful.

Jennifer Greenberg: Really resonates with me, right? Like, why are, why are we here? What is my why? I don't know what my why is entirely, but as I grow and grow older, I'm starting to, I think I'm starting to see it more and more. And that's what drives me is that, that quest. There's no end point, right? It's a journey, but that quest to know.

Mary Killelea: We know many of who listen into this podcast are women and career-minded women. Where do you see the most significant opportunities for women in business today?

Jennifer Greenberg: So, it's a really interesting question because the, when you said that, I'm like listening to my own internal constructs as you say that. And I will tell you my gut response and my gut response is in full and open partnership with other women and with men. We all have to do this together. I have been very purposeful in seeking out male mentors in my life. I've worked with amazing, strong women, amazing. Who I’ve learned tremendous things from, like you said, by watching and observing and look what works and, and, and making sure that I'm maintaining like healthy relationships with women. And I believe we need to also know how to work with men in a way that makes us all better and stronger and more capable. And that's within reach. Do you follow, have you read the works of Deborah Tannen at any time in your…?

Mary Killelea: I have not, no.

Jennifer Greenberg: I mean, it's funny, Mary, I think I was first reading Deborah Tannen in like the late 1980s. She's a linguist. She's a linguist who talks about the gender differences in language and in speech. And, and she was talking about it and writing a lot about it in a time when there wasn't as much gender fluidity, when really our mindset was that there was, there was the male and the female. And what we know now is that there is more fluidity and that different people have different places on the spectrum where they are in that. And so that's, you know, I say that with, with respect and understanding of that. And, and also at the same time, there's some very like statistically significant male behavior traits around linguistics and conversations and how we relate to each other in the workplace and female traits. And Deborah Tannen, reading Deborah Tannen early really opened my eyes to how sometimes our languages just cross.

One of the things that she talks about, for example, that I think is very relevant and other, other leaders have also talked about this and written about this in different formats. I keep coming across this idea of on an axis up and down is hierarchy or power. And on the side to side, horizontal is affinity or connection or intimacy, right? Let's think of it as connection. So, this power hierarchy versus this, this other axis of connection and the most, the most resonant leaders are ones who know how to work both axis so that they are, they are building strong connections with the people around them, meaningful, real connections, but they're also know how to exhibit a sense of power, right? A sense of a sense of command, so to speak. So, men and women orient differently on these axes. Men tend to orient on the hierarchy up and down, right? The hierarchy and power. And that's what they're paying attention to. As you watch two little boys play with each other. I don't know. I have two boys and I was always amused by this. You know, they'd have, they'd each have a car in their hand and one would say, my car is faster than your car. My car can jump over your car. Right. And I'm like, oh my Lord, you two kids. Come on. But then you turn to little, to little girls and Deborah Tannen backs us up with studies that she's done. And, you know, my, my, my doll has a blue dress. Mine dresses blue too. Right. And we're looking for that connection and the commonalities and we're, whether it's nurture, whether it's nature, doesn't matter. It is what we see happening both with when two women get together, finding commonalities, when two men tend to find some kind of hierarchy. Neither is right. Neither is wrong, but awareness of it and knowing how to work with in it is what gives us, is what gives us a step forward in our careers and our relationships with each other in the workplace, both with men and women.

Mary Killelea: Love it. When you reflect on your career, what are you most proud of?

Jennifer Greenberg: Oh, I'm so proud of leading those wilderness trips. I was really young and, and I remember laying in the tent at night, just worrying and worrying about everything and getting, you know, worrying about getting hit by lightning and worrying about these youth that I was with being okay. No, I mean, I really am. And I think that that, and I look back at the hard thing, I think I look at when I was 19, teaching high school, working with at-risk youth and putting myself in a very in a position of both care and power. Right. And then I think about, I think about the, you know, I also think about tackling an MBA in my late, in my mid to late forties. Went in there a little bit of an identity crisis at first. I remember the first time I went, but the first class, the first night I'm in there with all these really amazing, impressive people who are working at Nike and Intel and in nonprofits, and they're all, most of them are younger than I am. And I go to my, I realize I forget my dinner in the car and I go back to my car and I open the trunk and my kid's soccer ball falls out and starts bouncing across the parking lot. And like the two sides of me, this like putting on this new MBA hat. And then the like soccer mom like came just clashing, you know, glaring in front of me. And so getting over that, right. Getting over that kind of stepping into a new place and identity. So there's a lot of things that I'm really proud of and more so I'm, I'm, I'm really happy that now, and I don't know that happy is the right word, but I feel honored that my next step is working with leaders who are doing hard things and helping them as they face their challenges, because what they're doing. I'm in awe of my clients and what they are doing is hard and important and personally meaningful and being able to be there with them as they look out on their horizon and they figure out their steps to get there is truly, truly one of the greatest honors of my work life.

Mary Killelea: What does to be bolder mean to you?

Jennifer Greenberg: I remember when I was first doing like a values activity where you choose, like it's a great activity. You can look at your values and sort out a bunch of words and, and boldness came up and I looked at it and I thought, oh, interesting. This one's really speaking to me, but I'm not that bold. Like don't tell anyone, but right. And I pegged it as an aspirational value. And to be bold in a measured way, right? Like we put on our parachute before we jump out of the plane.

Mary Killelea: We should at least.

Jennifer Greenberg: It’s highly recommended. And so to step into your own self and to step into your old boldness and to, and to realize that it takes, it takes courage and readiness and, and measure. I think it's really important in how we, how we keep growing and moving forward.

Mary Killelea: This conversation has been so enjoyable. Is there anything that you had hoped people would walk away from today in our conversation that maybe we haven't covered that you wanted to have any final thoughts?

Jennifer Greenberg: So when I'm scrolling LinkedIn, I notice that instead of feeling excited and proud and like on board with all these great announcements people are making, all these wonderful, I start to feel a little jealous inside. And I've noticed that as I'm scrolling LinkedIn, no matter what, no matter what kind of self reflection I'm doing, that's coming up. And that's a very real thing. So, I turn off LinkedIn. I don't scroll through it. I think it's an important communication tool, but I'm noticing my internal reaction. So I say it's really important to listen to that internal reaction and then go find mentors who ignite you and surround yourself with powerful women who are doing amazing things, who also lift you.

Mary Killelea: Yeah.

Jennifer Greenberg: And really, I think that is the key. It's not about what we're doing in comparison to somebody else. It's not about the awards that we rack up, although there's a good case for sharing that information with other people, but it's about surrounding yourself with the right people who can, you know, who are all climbing the mountain with you.

Mary Killelea: Jennifer, it has been an extreme pleasure. I enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for being a guest and sharing your career story.

Jennifer Greenberg: I feel so grateful for having been here. Thank you so much, Mary, for inviting me.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guests. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number two, little b bolder.com.