Career Growth Advice from Ramona Shaw, Career Development Leader | Career Tips for Women in Career Development

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 70
Featuring Ramona Shaw

Episode Title: #70 Career Podcast Featuring Ramona Shaw Helping women Rise to Leadership Roles in Business

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Ramona Shaw



Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you, encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So, sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Hi there. Thanks for tuning in. Today's guest is Ramona Shaw. She is a certified professional leadership coach, the host of Manager Track podcast, and bestselling author of The Confident and Confident New Manager, How to Rapidly Rise to Success in Your First Leadership Role. I thought this was such a relevant topic for our audience. Thank you so much for being my guest today, Ramona. Appreciate it.

Ramona Shaw (Guest): Thank you for having me, Mary.

Mary Killelea: Okay, so let's dive in. I'd love to hear how you got into coaching.

Ramona Shaw: Yeah. Oh, so interesting. If I, you know, after the fact that sometimes it's hard to connect the dots while you're in it, but looking back, I could tell, oh, all these things make sense. I used to, as a child, always be really curious about other people, loved going in other people's homes and figuring out what they're doing and why they're doing and learning about their rituals. And then I grew up in Switzerland and I was good in math and of course, banking is a thing and ended up studying business, studied finance after that. And I went into banking and consulting and private equity ultimately. And that part of me, that analytical part and the financial part was always something that came easy and that I found fascinating. But I always had this sort of sidetrack that then I lived out in my personal life through personal development, just to get to know people and trying to figure out how brains work. And there was a moment in time where I got promoted into my first leadership role and I started to struggle. And it was through this combination of on the sidelines studying, you know studying personal development overall and, and mindfulness or even just understanding our minds and how they work. And then at the same time, really struggling with leadership. And that sort of was this where you have the biggest mess is where you have the biggest message. You know, that happened in the moment when I would make mistake over mistake. And I think, what am I doing wrong? I know I can lead, but this is harder than I thought. And I ended up getting a coach, I was advised by a good friend and mentor who said, you should, you should not give up on this. We should just get a coach and see where this is going to take you.

And I hired a coach and through that journey of diving into leadership development and seeing how it all ties back into personal development, how my curiosity for people, how that got satisfied with diving into leadership development, because it's all about people. It's about how we show up, but it's also about why do certain things can other people relate with us? Why do certain things trigger defensive, defensiveness or conflict? Why does one thing motivate and the other thing doesn't? And I find it fascinating.

So fast forward a little bit, I found a way to really enjoy my work as a leader and climb the ranks in the organization, expand my impact that way. And I felt really it, that was a change in the trajectory of my career at that moment when I was able to figure this out and jump on that journey of leadership development. And then I started to recognize that every day, but as I was stealing with numbers and so forth and portfolios, it was fine. But really my heart was beating for the people aspect and helping others and coaching others and mentoring others on that journey. And then I decided, you know what, instead of just coaching, I should probably know what I'm actually doing to not do any harm. I got certified and I knew this was it. And then it comes to that moment when you think, are people going to pay for that? Am I actually good at this? And is the market needing this? And once I had a yes to all these three questions, I started building my own company and been growing ever since and enjoying it more every day.

Mary Killelea: I think there's a lot of competition from a coaching perspective. So, I'd be curious how you differentiate yourself from others. Because I think there is a little bit of an overwhelm for people seeking support. It's like you get on LinkedIn and you're kind of bombarded by other people promoting themselves in this way or that way. What would you say differentiates yourself?

Ramona Shaw: I think there are three specific ways. One is I specifically focus on new managers or manager who have not had any leadership training. I do also work with more senior leaders naturally through my business and clients that I've had for many years. But my real focus is in the resources and the programs I create are all working with new managers who are transitioning into leadership or who want to solidify their leadership system, as I call it.

The second distinction is that I am not from an HR background. So, I've really gone through the experience myself. I've made a lot of mistakes along the way, and I come from the business side. Some people actually would maybe do better with someone who's coming from an HR perspective, because they're looking at the legal aspect that they want to know. And maybe they personally relate with someone else very differently. I think it's a bit like a yoga teacher. You can walk into yoga class and not like it at all. And then a week later, you go again and it's amazing. It's a different teacher. And so figuring that out is one way. But I think that a lot of my clients appreciate my real work experience across startups and fast growing and fast paced environments. Also, in private equity, it was a male dominated industry with high pressure and long work hours. And that definitely shapes the way I coach now and the people that I generally attract.

And then the third one is, it's sort of where do you, what are you looking for? If someone is looking to figure out what they want to do in their career, they really like a mindfulness approach or a self-discovery approach. That's specifically something that they should look for in their coach. I find myself working really well with people who are analytically minded, who are looking for frameworks and tools. I run the spectrum from sometimes it's really about, you have the answer and I know you got this. So, let's figure out what that is for you because there's not one way to lead. There's no cookie cutter approach, no matter what gets promised. It is not that easy. But on the other hand, I also feel that I create really good results. And I'm very useful for my clients when I'm able to share what I'm learning or what I bring from my past experience, but also what I'm learning from being in the trenches with so many different leaders as they're navigating these challenges and providing them with tools and frameworks that will allow them to show up in a more confident and competent way.

Mary Killelea: That's wonderful that you articulated it so clearly. Does it surprise you that businesses don't have more of a manager track to give them the training?

Ramona Shaw: Oh my gosh, it's baffling.

Mary Killelea: Right?

Ramona Shaw: I often, and this is interesting, so on my podcast in episode 100, I invited clients who've gone through my programs to talk about their experience as new managers and so forth. And I share this analogy as someone growing up in Switzerland, we put little kids on skis, age two, right? So I always knew how to ski, but then once in a while you see someone who's never been on skis and they're on top of them, they're really eager, right? I got this and then they get on the gondola, they get on top of the mountain. And then they stand there and you think, oh my gosh, I'm scared for you. You should not do this. And it's a bit like this. When someone gets promoted, they're going to be dropped off the top of the mountain and they can really get hurt themselves, their reputation, their confidence level often drops when they struggle because they start feeling like they're not contributing, they're not being respected and that really impacts someone's confidence, which takes a while for people to regain afterwards. But also they can hurt other people, right? If you're not a good manager and you're not delivering that kind of leadership that we're all looking for in the workplace, it can be highly demotivating, and not just demotivating, but negatively impacting the employees that work for us. So you can bump into other people, hurt them along the way, but you can also really get hurt.

But I shared that analogy as I've never had any ski lessons, you get dropped off at the top and then they're kind of like, good luck, congratulations. Now go, I'll see you down there. But one of my clients then said, yeah, such a great analogy. But actually, I think even more people look at someone who's great in the pool, amazing swimmer, rock star, record-keeping swimmer. And then they say, you're an awesome swimmer, you know what? You'll be a great skier. It's like, yeah, it's so good because the people who are usually the highest performers, they get promoted.

Mary Killelea: So I do love that analogy. And when you're talking about that, it makes me think people should also seek out your help and guidance when they know they're aiming to become a manager. So almost get that training and guidance from you before they're a manager or before they get promoted. Do you see that happening a lot?

Ramona Shaw: I think it's a good idea. And the people who are really eager and self-aware, like, oh my gosh, this is going to be different. Those are amazing students because their brain is really ready to soak things up with that level of awareness. But what is more difficult is to learn something that you cannot apply and then hoping for high retention rates. So, I usually work with people who can have at least one direct report and usually an outlook of hiring a few more where anything that they learn they can immediately put into practice. And that will make it stick, and it allows them to actually build the habits that they need to grow as a leader.

Mary Killelea: Great point. What are common mistakes that you see newly promoted managers make?

Ramona Shaw: Yeah, so there are a few natural shifts that I'd say encompass some of these common mistakes. And I talk about this in the book. There's the one common shift that new managers have to make to avoid some of these common mistakes is that they need to move away from thinking they need to be the doer and really stepping away and leading or being a support resource to those around them. So not seeing yourself as the doer. And this shows up in things such as thinking that they need to have all the answers. Thinking that everyone should do it their way. And if they're not doing it their way, then I'm going to correct it and I'm going to bring it across the finish line to make it all look pretty and then get and ship it out. Highly demotivating for team members. So, this is great. I'm going to pass it on. But then before I pass it on, I'm going to edit it a bunch and then I pass it on and then they'll see it like, actually, this wasn't my document. You made all these edits. It's deflating for the employee.

For someone who's doing all the work, they usually don't have a hard time delegating. And when they delegate, they're being way too specific where people feel like they're just monkeys on a keyboard. And it comes from this wanting to do good, knowing that they're really strong. And it comes from the good intention. And it's also the thing that made them successful as an individual contributor. But it's not the thing that's going to make them successful as a leader. And so really shifting away from doing is one of them.

The same is with advising. So the idea of I have to solve all the problems. Someone brings a problem to me or a question. I need to be the one who has the answer and gives advice. And I think this is interesting because in school, we're really taught that way. So, someone asks a question, we give an answer. We sometimes even think and we look at role models or leadership role models from the past that they come off as very strong, very dominant, very assertive, and very opinionated. And we may actually have this imprint in our head of that's what a leader does. And we can learn these things from a young age, but we have this idea. What we find though today, and we look at effective leaders are what I see when I do 360 feedback reports, where we gather the feedback from direct reports, when a leader is able to find the right balance between actually giving advice and being directive and knowing when that's appropriate, to also knowing when they need to take a step back and challenge the other person to do the thinking. And this could be things such as very simply in a feedback conversation, instead of saying like, I have some suggestions on how you can make this presentation better. First off, on this slide, I would actually talk about it that way. And then at the end, you could have made this shorter, right? You could pause and say, I want to talk about the presentation and how it went. If you had to do it again, what would you do differently? What felt good to you? What did you not like about it? And so asking the questions and letting them think through it before always having the advice and the suggestions, or just prompting them to say, you know what, I find that there's something in this report, there's something missing in the conclusion. Can you read it again and see if you have an idea of how to flush that out and add more meat to the bone? That would be another one where people usually again comes from best intentions.

A third one that I think I see often is where people still focus too much on themselves. That is the, I need to look good, or I need to be successful in this. And this is a hard one. And this usually takes a while because all the way up until this point in time, it was all about you, right? Through the education session, early in the career, it's all about you. At this point now, it becomes about the team. So, granting the team visibility, giving credit to the team can feel uncomfortable. But that's the way to go. And really elevating them and hiring smart people and hiring people that can do it better than you, not feeling like you're not going to have a job. Intellectually, we get that. It's like, yeah, I understand that that's not what I should be doing. But internally it's like, oh my gosh, but they're all going to look better than me. And then who am I? And I'm going to lose my job. That is usually sort of that backstory and it shows. So really adapting this mindset. I'm going to be the better leader, the better my team is. So, elevating them.

And then the fourth one that I want to quickly highlight here to also address what are some of the common mistakes people make is to wait or new managers make is to wait for direction. Once you're in that leadership room, it's almost like two boxes or fish bowls and you jump from one to the other. And when you're in the bowl of the leadership bowl, you're no longer a direction taker. You're a direction giver or a strategy setter. And that doesn't mean that you don't need to collaborate and manage up and gather input and listen to what your manager is saying and all and create alignment. But you need to take a way more proactive stance and have an opinion and offer suggestions and demonstrate that you can think strategically. Don't wait for your managers to tell you what you've got, what resources you have available and how you should set up your team. You have to be proactive about those little things.

Mary Killelea: Nowadays, emotional intelligence comes into play so much from people having options to work for different companies, work remote or just the burdens that we've all been under with COVID and just upheaval. How do you advise people, managers, to be more human?

Ramona Shaw: Ah, such a good one. It's a tough one. And I think there's something about it's really, and that's just a common challenge, because it is finding that right balance where we are human, but we're also still able to deliver results, right? Because a lot of leaders are, they recognize, I want to be compassionate, I want to put people first, but then my boss is saying, we also got to deliver results or we're cutting costs and I don't get extra resources, but we have to deliver the project. And a lot of managers have really strong work ethic. So, then they're the ones sacrificing because they want to lead with this human approach and a lot of flexibility and compassion. They also want to satisfy their manager, which puts them into the crunch. And we see this with burnout rates in managers and how frequent this is. And I think it is because of the dual pressure on both ends. So leading in a more human way or humane, how do you call it? Humane way.

Mary Killelea: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Ramona Shaw: I do strongly believe that it is way less about intelligence or technical expertise. And especially if you think your career trajectory is on that scope or that path of leadership, then as much as you invested in acquiring your technical skills, it's probably as much as you should invest in developing your people skills. And that in the human aspect often comes from developing greater self-awareness and working on your own self-compassion, self-acceptance. It's really hard to be compassionate with someone else if we're not able to be compassionate with ourselves. It always creates a little bit of disconnect that can show up and create friction one way or another or sooner or later. So that inner work of understanding what am I actually doing? What am I role modeling? And then how does my world reflect on other people?

Mary Killelea: Career growth. Let's talk about that because I know you cover that in your podcast quite a bit. What are the three steps to achieving any career goal without giving up along the way?

Ramona Shaw: I love this topic. And actually, it was just interesting that you say, I talk about this in the podcast. I'm not a career coach. So this evaluation of what should I do? That is not, I've done this in the past, but that's not the focus of my work. So every time I get to mentor someone or talk about it, I get really excited about it. And there's how to achieve your career goals. It's a complex question. Simplifying sometimes doesn't give it credit. But I think the three aspects that aren't often talked about is one, creating a really compelling goal. What is it actually that's going to make your heart sing? And sometimes we're sort of attracted by flashy things that seem shiny, a shiny object. Sometimes it's because we think someone else thinks we should do that. We want to satisfy someone else or meet someone else's expectations. And those are not compelling goals. Compelling goal is really one where we feel this is, I'm curious about this. I feel I could learn about this in an endless way or when I get to that, it's a step in the direction of where I see my path going and where I see I can fully leverage my potential and my talents. And it is aligned with my values. So identifying a compelling goal, a clear and compelling goal is step number one.

And then the second part of this is once we have that compelling goal, we will still come up against challenges. People who hold us back, setbacks, failure, struggles, moments of demotivation, or when we start questioning ourselves. And in those moments, we need compelling reasons for why to pursue that compelling goal. And we need both the goal and we need the reasons. And the reason sometimes can be superficial initially of like, oh, I want more money, but let's expand on that. Why more money? What will be possible when you have more money? What will be possible if you have that title? What will be possible if you have this level of influence? Why? And asking why a few times to really get to the core and write it all down. And then whenever you get into the moment, you feel like I'm going to give up, I'm going to let that go. It's actually maybe not that big of a deal, or maybe I don't really want it. Go back and read your goals and the compelling reasons. In fact, if something is really important, I'll probably read those reasons every day. This is how our brain will be receptive or will form our reality and then allow us to stay in it because we're constantly connected to why we're doing it.

And then the last thing is that I think we're pursuing goals often because we're assuming something is better on the other side. I may feel more confident. I may feel more financially secure. And it's these situations that I think probably a lot of the audience you can relate to too, when you get a degree. I remember thinking, oh my gosh, once I got my bachelor's degree, I'll be set. I'll be amazing. I'll be good to go. And then that bachelor's degree comes. Actually, not true. I need a master's degree. And then after the master's degree, I needed additional accreditations and additional degrees and so forth. And we think, oh, at some point I'll feel confident and competent and that target just keeps moving and the horizon keeps moving. So if we flip that around, we could say, let's say I want to get a promotion. I want to become a director. Why is it that I want to become a director? And then how do I think that I will feel once I'm a director? How do I think I will be thinking about myself in my work once I'm a director? And what will I be doing differently as a director than what I'm doing today? So how will I think? How will I feel? And what will I be doing? And write this down. And sometimes it's as simple as three things. Whatever comes to mind first, write those three things down for each. And then do as much of these things now to really start to cultivate the thinking, start to cultivate the feelings, because we don't have to wait to feel confident. We could actually feel confident now. We could think differently about ourselves now. And then we start acting the way we think we would act once we have a director level role. And once we start to think that way, feel that way and act that way, actually achieving the goal becomes so much easier.

Mary Killelea: Great advice. Great advice. So, let's talk about career strategies. I think people get hung up on it because they don't know what they don't know. So, what is your advice for someone who is planning or thinking or struggling with career strategy?

Ramona Shaw: I personally think and based on the experience that I have and working with people and reflecting on some of their career decisions, we sometimes think this is a linear path. When I would actually say the best way I heard this explained or as a visual that I've heard before is it's a lot more like a climbing wall than it is a ladder. Meaning the ladder will go straight up. You go from the team lead to a manager role to then a senior manager, director and so on. I see this almost with everyone I talk to. And most people think they're the only ones and everyone else has sort of a clear straight path.

Mary Killelea: I do agree with that. I think there's a lot of people who think that it's a straight path when in reality it's not.

Ramona Shaw: It's not, but outside it may look that way. If everything was perfectly lined up and they never questioned it and there was one determination, and it just naturally fell into place. It's usually not that way. I've yet to see an example where in fact that probably was the way from the inside and looking behind the scenes. Yeah, it's the climbing wall. And I think sometimes it is really exploring different things and then looking at once you've explored, also looking at something you get to that place where you have to actually focus in. So I may be expanding at the beginning of the career a lot more and saying yes and experimenting with different roles, different responsibilities, really figuring out when do I shine, what energizes me and what drains me. But you won't know unless you experience it. And then comes a time when we've had that experience and it's more about swimming in your lane and really focusing on your strong suits and saying no to the things that could be distracting or could just slow you down because you're distracting too many ways or pulled into too many directions. But to make the point here, when someone is thinking about their career strategy, I do advise to look at what are my values. Values make, I think it sounds a little bit woo-woo.

Mary Killelea: No, I get it.

Ramona Shaw: Right, a little intangible, but whenever I have a conversation with someone about their values and this goes back to hey, tell me about your life choices. Why did you choose this over that? Why did you land here? Or why did you behave a certain way in that? Or why did you highlight this one thing over another? They're all demonstrations of values. And when we can say, oh, okay, I see this. I like to be in an environment where I can always build something. I like to build. And then I move on, and I build something else. It's really important to know. And it takes a couple of decades, I was actually saying it's like 15, 20 years to get to that place where you can see all that come together. And from then on out being very intentional in where you want to go.

Mary Killelea: So how can you fast track your leadership career without it consuming your life?

Ramona Shaw: There are a lot of these misconceptions, not just misconceptions, but I think it's also a little bit ingrained in some cultures and workplaces where we think we have to, in order to grow and be successful, we have to just work harder. And I personally very much grew up with this. My dad had a business, and he was working incredibly hard and I thought long hours equals career success. And it took me forever to realize, oh my gosh, I worked in this private equity industry, right? At seven o'clock, it's still afternoon. And there was one guy who was into rock and roll and dancing and all that. And he would frequently leave at five o'clock. And I would always think, he's like few levels above me and I couldn't figure out how he did that. And how he would still get promotions and how he would still do all this work and get the accolades and the recognition. And it was such an upside down mindset that I equated value with working hours. And stepping back to recognize my value is not in the hours that I work, my value is in the, or my worth is in the value that I create. And it is also not about being a yes person and pleasing everyone else. And once we recognize this is a pattern, it will actually only get worse.

And so if you want to continue to grow your career as a leader, if that isn't solved, that isn't figured out, and this is totally figure outable, then you either burn out or you'll give up at some point or you're constantly feeling exhausted or over extended. And sometimes people think, oh, it's my boss or it's the job or it's the culture. And then they go elsewhere. And soon after six months, a year after they find themselves in exactly the same situation, because they haven't yet learned to shift their mindset of no, no, no, it's not about the hours I work to the value I create, which also means if I want to work this many hours and create this kind of value within the time, I have to leverage people. It is only possible by working as a team and letting go of control. That is hard to do. Saying no is hard to do as a people pleaser. I know this is a hard transition to make, but it's so worth it.

And then that's when we see people who are actually able to move out of this reactive phase, where I feel like I'm constantly shooting from the hips and it's all about putting out fires and in this situation, I'm just like, oh, I'm going to be a leader. And then I'm going to be in this reactive mode and they get hours back in their days where now they can start to think about their strategic projects that they get all the recognition for that elevates their visibility and gets them into the next leadership role. But before we have that buffer in place to move in that strategic phase or strategic realm of thinking, you have to figure out how to shrink your hours on the job, help use your team or work with your team and let go of control, but empower them, let them grow and shine. And then you get that extra layer of time and mental capacity. And that's what you use to take the catalyst to the next level.

Mary Killelea: That is so important. So important. I think with back to back Zoom meetings scheduled all day, people don't have time to think, even below the managers, but both managers, because they have to be the leaders. So I totally get that. How do you know when it's time to leave a role and move on to a new opportunity?

Ramona Shaw: I think there are a few pointers or warning signs almost. I think one of them is the misalignments on values. So, if you feel, I actually don't think that the values that this company represents and specifically an incident or a question to ask yourself is, what does it take to be successful in this company? And if that's not what I'm willing to give, or if that doesn't feel good to me, it's probably good to move on. I had a situation where I thought at some point, if I do want to have kids, I was in my twenties, I do want to have kids. And I don't see anyone in this organization in climbing their ranks who has kids and is present with the kids. So I realized that that's not going to work. So, this is working for this phase of my life, but I could not imagine this working while also raising kids. For me personally, it actually worked for a lot of people, but not for me personally. So that's one. Another one is if you don't want your boss's job or your boss's boss's job, then the question is maybe not, do I need to leave this company, but do I need to leave this job? Because these are the simple signals that maybe you should start looking at which boss's job would I like to have or which peer’s job would I like to have and make a transition. One of those on the climbing wall, move laterally and find a position where you could see that career trajectory.

One of the things I think why people sometimes feel demotivated or disengaged is because they don't have a goal. They don't see it. They don't know what they're going for. They don't want to have their boss's job and they don't even see how there's an opportunity to shift gears or to transition elsewhere. And even if no one presented that to you in an organization, you are the one who has to create it. I've seen this over and over where people get really creative and they start to demonstrate how they could provide value to the organization. They create their own roles. It's possible. Or at least have the conversations with your boss and others to figure out where would be a better path.

So we talked about a few red flags, right? To recap, the one we talked about first was misalignment of values. The second one was if you don't want to have your boss's job or your boss's boss's job. And then the third was if you don't have any clear idea of what the next steps could look like in terms of career progression. And then the last one is if you don't get any feedback, if you feel that you don't know how to grow into that next level. And in the beginning, you obviously, if you don't get feedback, you want to make sure that you communicate this and you ask for having such conversations with your manager and you solicit feedback. But if you've communicated it a few times and you still not don't get any feedback back and you're in a phase of your life where you do want to accelerate your career, you want to get to that next level, then that may be a sign that you have to look for a different manager or different role or company overall.

Mary Killelea: That is such good advice. And I'm sure there's some people who are having really big aha moments right now.

Ramona Shaw: Oh, I hope so.

Mary Killelea: Lots of women struggle with confidence or imposter syndrome. As a leadership coach, what is your advice for them?

Ramona Shaw: Yeah, so this could be its own, its whole own podcast episode to talk about it. It's a big thing. And I think a lot, you know, a lot, not I think, I know we know that a lot of people deal with imposter syndrome. I think the number that's out there from research is that 70% of employees at some point in their career felt the imposter syndrome. A lot of issues and challenges in the workplace are a result of self-doubt or that lack of confidence in terms of people's ability to lead effectively or advocate for their career. And I think sometimes we focus a little bit too much when we're in that stage of self-doubt, we focus a little too much on trying to use knowledge to compensate for the lack of confidence or for the imposter syndrome. And I found that it's hardly ever a skill, a competence or a knowledge issue. So, while this may sound like a very clear and obvious solution to self-doubt, a more effective and faster way to step into these conversations more confidently and also being able to articulate and inspire confidence is to work on three things internally. Self-awareness, understanding what are actually, when are these doubts triggered or when do I feel like I'm an imposter? What is the thought? What are the thoughts that are running through my head?

Second one is self-acceptance, like accepting where we're at and who we are. And that doesn't mean just accepting that we're not quite ready yet or we're not good enough yet and using that as these inner thoughts as facts. That's not true, right? So a thought, a doubt is just a thought. It is not a fact, very different. So self-acceptance means to accept all the achievements that we've had and all the things that we messed up. Like once we get to that point where we can say, and I say that to myself all the time, probably daily, I'm half a rock star and half a total mess. And when you get like okay with that, he's like, yeah, oh my gosh, all the things. That is so funny. Like I can't figure this one out. Or those are the things that I have the gaps in and we get comfortable that everyone has the growth opportunities and the blind spots and the things they don't know they don't know. And everyone has the self doubts running through their head. And yet at the same time, everyone around us also has this set of accomplishments. And most of us with sort of the lack of confidence or imposter syndrome running, we don't give the accolades, the achievements, the strength, nearly enough airtime in our head. So self-acceptance means to allow the thought of the self doubt. So like, yep, that's there. It's part of what's running through my head. And as much as I think of that, I also need to think about all the good things. We cultivate an actual balance because our mind is wired to look for the negative. It's a survival instinct because it's a threat to our survival. And so shifting away from this natural negativity bias and say like, oh, course correcting the bias as much as I'm criticizing self criticizing or criticizing others, I also I'm showing gratitude, appreciation, and I acknowledge for the good things.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, I always say when I get a negative thought in my head, I just, and I know this is silly, but I'm like, kick that negative thought to the curb. I just like trying to get it out, I recognize it. And then I try to say, nope, not going to let you in.

Ramona Shaw: Yeah, yeah, totally. It's this idea of talk back to your mind more than you listen to it.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, interesting. Yeah. Okay. So I am a aspiring author, so not published, but I have such great respect for you and other authors. Let's talk about your book for a minute, The Confident and Confident New Manager. What was the experience like in writing it? What do you hope others gain from it?

Ramona Shaw: Yeah, so I wrote the book very specifically with my audience in mind, because I find that most of the people that I work with don't have time to read long books, especially the nonfiction leadership books. They are short on time. They like to not have a lot of fluff but really get to the core of it. And yet at the same time, I personally felt that a lot of the leadership books are very focused on the long lists of competencies or the things you should do. And like pages long, like do this and then this and then this and then this. And I always thought, oh my gosh, I flipped the page and I already forgot half of the list. And then they asked me tomorrow and I know one thing after 20 things. So, I wanted to write a book that isn't focused on all the to-do's and giving you a lot of homework. And it was also not one that was full of stories and sort of like context and elaborating and repeating to make it a big book. So, I wanted to write something that was concise and was allowing people to or creating the experience by reading it, the experience of a mindset shift. So, I go specifically into what it looks like as an IC. What is the mindset shift to make into to be in a leadership role? How do you evaluate where you stand and what's working, what isn't? Some tactical advice and how to demonstrate that new mindset in your tactics, but always having it connected to your way of thinking. So, your attitude and how you see yourself as a leader has to change from an IC into a leadership role. And then once it's changed, here are the specific things you can do.

Mary Killelea: I love it. I'm going to go pick it up. But I think it's important to define IC because before I started working for the company I work for, I did not know IC meant individual contributor.

Ramona Shaw: Yes. Thanks for catching that.

Mary Killelea: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's awesome. And I seriously will pick up your book. Anything else you want to highlight from your book before we move on to your podcast? Because you know, that's a hot topic on my mind.

Ramona Shaw: Yeah. And I think the last thing I'd say is that what I'm excited about with the book too is there's the book to read. And then I also is similar to all the work that I do is I want to help people actually put this into their actions. So, knowledge is great, but doing is better. And you read something and then you have a link where you can sign up and get a ton of resources that will help you take action on the things that we share were shared in the book. And I'm excited for that. I'm happy with how it turned out. And people say like, oh my gosh, I was able to read this on an airplane flight from Denver to San Francisco. And I feel really inspired and ready to go make some shifts. And that is the win and the goal I had in mind.

Mary Killelea: Well, I can tell just by this conversation, how inspiring you are. So I'm sure it comes across the pages of the book. And thank you. Yeah, of course. Let's talk about your podcast, Manager Track Podcast. So for the listeners who want to tune in, what can they expect? Who do you interview kind of give us a little bio on that?

Ramona Shaw: Yeah, they're very similar. It's just funny, right? It's good to talk about it and realize like, oh, yeah, it's the same principle. Podcast episode is about 20 minutes long. And I go into one specific theme usually, and I go deep into it, making it as practical and applicable as possible, mostly with the newer mid-level managers in mind, from leading teams, hiring, growing teams, managing up, as well as career conversations, emotional intelligence as well. And then once in a while, I sprinkle something in around stoicism and resilience, sort of the mental piece to it. And then I also have guests on the show who bring in new perspectives and share either from sort of the expertise that that they pursue in their career or leadership lessons if they've led bigger companies in the past.

Mary Killelea: Awesome. I will include the link to your podcast and to your book in the show notes. What would you tell your 20 year old self?

Ramona Shaw: I would tell my 20 year old self that I've already shared this in this podcast here that I would, as much as I focus on expanding my technical skills, I should invest in growing my people skills. That's an area that gets often gets overlooked until people move into leadership or even beyond, sadly, right? So then they're already leading and when things don't go well, they start to realize like, oh, maybe it's my people skills or my communication skills or my ability to lead. And I think if I were 20 again, and I would have to give myself advice, I would say every time you pursue something that makes you better on your technical expertise or in the financial industry, also invest in something of equal value sort of to make you a stronger communicator, to help you build your awareness, to help you learn a new people skill overall, emotional intelligence as well and so forth.

Mary Killelea: That's great. What does to be bolder mean to you?

Ramona Shaw: So I love the title of your podcast. And by the way, I can't wait to read your book too. There is so much about the boldness and I think the personally, I believe this statement, it's not mine, but I believe the statement and I see this in my own life, the level of success that we achieve directly correlates to the level of discomfort that we can tolerate. So for me, being bold means to learn to tolerate more discomfort and act despite of it.

Mary Killelea: I like that a lot. Well, it has been such a pleasure getting to know you. And like I said, your energy is infectious. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your insights and stories with our listeners.

Ramona Shaw: Same to you, Mary. You've been an amazing host. So this was a really enjoyable conversation. Thank you.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guests. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at to be bolder.com. That's the number two, little b bolder.com.