Career Growth Advice from Amanda McKinney, Marketing Leader | Career Tips for Women in Marketing

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 82
Featuring Amanda McKinney

Episode Title: #82 Inspiring Business Growth: Insights from Amanda McKinney

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Amanda McKinney



Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you. Encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So, sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Thank you for tuning into this show. Today's guest is Amanda McKinney. Amanda is the host of the well-known podcast, The Unapologetic Entrepreneur. She has a book coming out in June titled Why Not You? An Accidental Entrepreneur's Guide to Success. She actively helps entrepreneurs with marketing and business through her coaching programs. She loves helping others step into their definition of success so they can combat the comparison and should trap that all entrepreneurs face. She has over 10 years of marketing experience working for various corporations. Amanda graduated from the University of Florida. She has a bachelor's and a master's degree in communications. Amanda, thank you so much for being here.

Amanda McKinney (Guest): Mary, thank you so much for having me. It is such a pleasure.

Mary Killelea: All right, so let's just dive in. First, tell me about your career journey. I'd love to learn about your life in corporate America as part of like the setup for your background.

Amanda McKinney: Sure. I, you know, graduated from the University of Florida, like you said, and jumped right into corporate. The part that I typically don't even think about when I share this story is that I graduated in Florida and then moved to Oklahoma. And so, I didn't know anyone. And I was really like, I mean, if you've ever tried to get a job in a very new location, that is quite an interesting path. Like, I didn't have a network of people. I was really trying to just figure things out one step at a time. And well, I feel like that probably prepared me for my entrepreneurship journey right there.

But I was trying to find this job, this magical job of like what I was trying to do. And I ended up working at a corporation in a marketing position, which I really thought I was going to focus on PR. I looked at both when I was in my master's degree, and I really preferred PR, but I got a marketing job first. So that was interesting. And I fell in love with marketing. Yeah, where I don't know that that would have been exactly what happened in the PR world for myself. But I fell in love with marketing, one, because I had a great boss, I had a fantastic boss. It was a great experience for about eight or nine months, because it was a contract position. And I really started to see how marketing could shape a product and shape the way someone perceived it in a non sleazy way. So I started to see the fun part about marketing. And I just loved it.

And so, then I went into event marketing in a different corporation, which was totally different. And I'm traveling around all over doing event marketing. So, think about big trade shows, anywhere between 3000 attendees and 30,000 attendees. And I had these big shows and big crowds and big events. And it was fun. And at that job, I was there the longest. And that was the one that I was like, I'm going to be a top marketing executive. Like I'm going to climb this ladder. I'm ready. I am going to do the thing. And that was the only goal I had was to climb the ladder. I was just on this path. Entrepreneurship was not on the path at all. I didn't have any thought of starting my own business at all. Never really gave it to like not a thought and kept going.

And in that job, I really got very close to burnout, but I didn't even know it. So it took my mom and my now husband basically having an intervention and saying, if you keep going at this pace, you're going to have health problems. Like this is going to be a problem for you. And I thought if these two people who love me so much are thinking to say this to me, I should probably listen. And at that point, that's when I started to figure out like, oh, this isn't healthy to be working this much. Like I had no idea because I was seeing it in that space of like, that's what my my boss was doing. That's what all these other people were doing. So I was just following suit, wearing that badge of honor with pride of being so busy. And that's when I realized I needed to make some changes. And I don't know if you've ever been in a situation, but it was near impossible to make those changes in that spot because I had dug the hole so deep.

Mary Killelea: Right, right. You created it.

Amanda McKinney: Yeah. Oh yeah. It was all myself. I did it all. And I didn't really know how to do it. And I ended up leaving that job and starting at a different corporation. So, I actually left and then in between that time, which was a very short amount of time, just a few weeks, but I took the time to think like, what, what do I want to do differently in this new job? And in the new job, I had employees that I was managing, I was in a higher position. It was exactly what I wanted to do. It was the next step, but I did create better boundaries for myself in that second job that were so helpful. And so that was the corporate experience.

And then a little over a year into that job, that company went through layoffs. And as you know, marketing is the first on the list usually for laying people off. And me and my whole team were laid off. And that's when I was like, well, maybe I'll try this consulting thing and started the journey.

Mary Killelea: That is such a great story. And literally, I think you've answered a couple of questions that I had in my head.

Amanda McKinney: I love it.

Mary Killelea: But you know, you described burnout and burnout is such a real thing for women. And I think it's talked about so much more today than it used to be. What advice do you have for women around burnout?

Amanda McKinney: Oh gosh. I mean, it's so hard. So, I'm going to like, no one can see me, but I'm like raising both hands saying, I am guilty of wearing the badge of I want to be busy. I want to be productive. I want to do all the things. And that will lead to burnout at some point. And even if you can't see it, it's coming, it's going to get you. And I feel like so many people that I've talked to, I don't have this part of my story, thankfully, because I had people that intervened, but most people say I ended up in the hospital. And so, I say that to just say like, if you're thinking about it, it's possible. First and foremost is possible for everyone. And the second part is like, for me, the way that I combat it now is yes, I have boundaries, like time boundaries that are really, really helpful.

But the thing that's really helped me the most when it comes to not burning out is I came up with this thing called an MIT, a most important task. And so, every single week I ask myself, like, what is the most important project I'm working on this week? That's going to help me get closer to my goal. And I know what that project is. And then each day, I ask myself, what is the most important task today related to that project? And if I can accomplish that task, then I feel like I have, I'm going to use the term and say, I feel like I've done enough. That's never really the case. I always want to do more, because I think anyone who's on the path for burnout is a high achiever. And I think we're all in good company here. And so when we are that way, we're going to fill our to do list. So we'll never feel like we did enough. But the MIT has allowed me to say, but I did, you don't feel it right now, Amanda, but you did, you did the thing that's going to help you get one step closer. And I have to give myself pep talks like that all the time, talk to myself all the time about this. So that is one thing is like really identifying what it is. And that thing maybe go pick up the kids from school. That thing may be to take a shower, to work out, to write the blog post, to record the podcast episode. Like it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's big, small, whatever. It's just what is the thing that you got to get done today?

Mary Killelea: That sounds like a very effective strategy. You mentioned time bounding as a part of your boundary technique, boundary setting technique. What are some other boundary tips that you have for others or that you use for yourself?

Amanda McKinney: I think it's also very important because I'll share all the tips that I have, but it's important for me to start with boundaries are really hard for me. They are not natural for me. And some people set them so well and do it so easily and so effortlessly. That's not how they've come to me. So I don't know what that means. I didn't grow up with it. There's a lot of things that I'm sure that could be said about it, but it was actually being around some of my friends who also own businesses that have great boundaries that I saw them in real life. And one of my friends, she says no very gracefully. Like it doesn't matter if I'm like, Hey, do you want to go have dinner on Thursday night? And she'll say, no, thank you. And that's it. And it's nothing to do with me. It's that she doesn't have capacity for that on Thursday. And it's fine. And I have just admired that so much. And I've really started to try and emulate setting boundaries that are helpful.

With all the tips, if someone's listening and like, it's really hard, I just want you to know it's hard for me. So we are in good company. But something that time bound boundaries are really helpful for me, specifically as an entrepreneur, as I'm running this business and trying to do so many things, especially someone who has a lot of ideas. And so the time bound boundaries for me start with, if I was helping anyone do this, I would say, well, when do you want to work? And when do you not want to work? That's the first question I would ask. Because some people are totally okay working nights and weekends, because it's their side gig. And they can't work on it on Monday morning, or whatever, or it's the season of life where that's just the case of what it's going to be. And then other people will say, I never want to work on Saturday, period, end of story. And I'm like, okay, great. There's your time boundary, right? Like, that's what we have. Knowing when you want to work and when you don't want to work.

Also knowing that life is not perfect. And that is never going to play out every single day, like always. So, there's going to be seasons of life when your perfect schedule, it's not possible. So we have to give ourselves grace with that. And then there is, I'm sure you've heard it before, but hopefully everyone's familiar with Parkinson's Law. It basically says like, you will fill any time amount you give yourself for a specific task. And I think about this of when you are going on vacation, and you have luggage requirements or like luggage limits of like a carry-on, because I never like checked a bag. So, I try to keep everything to carry on. And I think about that of like, I'm going to pack everything I can into that carry-on and get it packed in there so tight so that I can take everything I want in this carry-on. But if I had a checked bag, I'd fill that thing too.

Mary Killelea: So true.

Amanda McKinney: We do the same thing with our time. And so giving ourselves specific amounts of time, not just for work, like overall, like I stop work at 5pm. Like that's a great time boundary, if that's what you need, but also for a specific task. Like if you need to write a blog post or record a podcast episode or record a video for social media, give yourself a time limit. Give yourself 10 minutes to record that video because it's really only going to take you two. But instead, what we do is we take that video 14 times before we call it good. And we've wasted an hour.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, that's so, so key. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Okay. So you've helped, you know, your career and your business is modeled helping other people build their business and market their business. But I would really love to, before we get into that and who is your ideal client, et cetera. I want to talk about the wonderful podcasts that you have, you're coming out with a book, you have coaching programs. How have you approached your business strategy and where is like, how do you address that when people are trying to figure out where to start or, or how to set goals?

Amanda McKinney: Yeah. Oh, this is so good, Mary. This is so exciting. So, the first thing is I'm so excited to talk about the strategy. No one's ever asked me about this on a podcast before, so I'm super pumped to talk about it. But before the strategy of what business model to use and what products or services to have, this is where the book comes in, which is really fun for me. So, I've taught about marketing for years now, and I love marketing, and I will always have that as part of my expertise and what I coach on. But what I found is that if we don't understand why we want to be an entrepreneur and what success is for us, we could build a business that we hate. So before picking a business model, before picking a strategy, which I know is way more exciting than defining success, like I'm aware of this, but if we can take a moment to really think about first, why do I want to be an entrepreneur? And the reason that I'm separating these things is because the why to be an entrepreneur is so personal, and you'll probably never tell anyone this.

I'm happy to share mine, by the way, so I'll give my example of why I want to be an entrepreneur is because I want to be in control of my schedule, who I work with, and what I work on. It sounds very selfish, and that's okay, because that's the why behind why I want to be an entrepreneur. You didn't hear me say, I want to coach on marketing. That's the how. But you know what? If the how burned down because no one wants to learn from me anymore, I'd probably create a floral shop, because I think floral arranging is fun. I would probably do something totally different because my why for being an entrepreneur is so strong.

Mary Killelea: I love that. And I'm not kidding. If I wasn't doing marketing, I probably would be doing a flower shop, too.

Amanda McKinney: Isn't it so fun?

Mary Killelea: It's so fun.

Amanda McKinney: I love it. I think it's fantastic. All the floral shops, please keep having floral arranging classes because they're so dang fun.

Mary Killelea: Okay, so I get that. So you understand your why. Now let's talk about the fun stuff, the strategy.

Amanda McKinney: Yes, the fun stuff is then like, okay, I know I want to be an entrepreneur. This is probably what my, this is my expertise. This is what I want to do. And I think it's important to just know that going into entrepreneurship is you're going to test different things, and you're going to try different things. And the first thing you offer is probably not going to be the last thing you offer. So going into it with like, I'm just kind of going to throw a spaghetti at the wall a little bit and see what I want to do. Because every client you say yes to, and you'll gain more understanding of what you want to say yes to and what you want to say no to. So really, the strategy is say yes, to figure out what you want to say no to. It's a very simple strategy.

But I can share my own journey and share kind of how that went. And then if someone is this is I'm going to be speaking more on services, because that's what I know. But I have definitely worked with people that have products. Now products are a different avenue because you really have to create something. But I would for the person if they're thinking about products, it's the minimum viable product of like, what is the smallest version of what you want to create? And then go from there. Because even with services or products, in my opinion, the best thing you can do is get it in front of people and get feedback, which no one wants to do.

Mary Killelea: No, it's so vulnerable.

Amanda McKinney: No one wants to do this ever. And I totally understand. We could talk about what I've learned through hearing harsh feedback for sure. But really, when you think about the business strategy, it's like, what do you want to test out? What do you want to get in front of people? And just do that. So, for me, it was marketing consulting. So I said I was a marketing consultant, which I was like, like, when I think about that now, I'm like, that is not what I am. But it's what I said at first, because I didn't know what else to say. And at first, I was working with corporate clients. So my business model was I was hired by people who knew and trusted me. So that first, first people that hired me, which by the way, they pay really well. So that worked out great for year one in business. I had retainer clients. It was fantastic. Like part of that, I'm like, why did I just stay there? But I didn't. Because it wasn't really fulfilling. I enjoyed working with the clients that I did, but it wasn't exactly what I wanted to do.

So that was working with corporations being hired basically by referral. There was no marketing really, in terms of an online presence. I didn't have a website yet. There wasn't really a social media presence. There wasn't a lot of that. It was only referral based. If someone knew I got laid off, and I was starting this thing and they hired me. So the business model was referrals and retainer clients was really what it was.

Then in 2018 is when I realized, I don't think that I want to work with corporate clients. And so in 2018, I just started saying yes to anything that basically came my way. Like Amanda, will you write these emails for us? Whatever. Anything that came my way, I said yes to. And I then said yes to teaching an email marketing class at a coworking space and a yoga teacher showed up. And I was like, oh my gosh, I love yoga. We just really hit it off and we started talking. And then about a month or so later, she said, Amanda, I never knew I was a business owner until you told me I was one. And immediately I was like, who didn't tell you? I was so offended. And I realized through that conversation that in yoga teacher training, they're taught to teach yoga. They're not taught to run a business. The same can be said for a dentist or most other trade based, service based businesses. They learn the service. They learn the trade. They learn the thing that they can do. They don't learn the business stuff. And it just broke my heart.

So, then that brought me into the coaching world. So, then my business, the strategy was coaching, and I was doing one-on-one and group coaching at that point. And I was really figuring things out of like, how do I want to show up in this way? I've always been a natural cheerleader, but I was like, how do I be a good coach? Those two things are different. And how do I do those two things? So that was more of the strategy there of like, okay, I'm going to go with coaching clients and whether it's one-on-one and group. I did a mix of both. I saw a dip in my revenue, 2018, 2019, when I changed from one business model to another solid dip. Then in 2020, I am one of the fortunate businesses that I saw a massive uptick in my business because for two years I had been talking to yoga teachers about, Hey, you should probably try this online thing. And then –

Mary Killelea: You were positioned perfectly.

Amanda McKinney: Yes. Like, I mean, you can't plan these things. It just happened. And then I was fortunate enough to be able to help yoga teachers over the next few years. And so in 2020, it was all about, I did some coaching, but it was much more scalable because the amount of people that wanted me to answer their questions, it wasn't available from a one-on-one coaching standpoint. So, I opened a membership, and I also had a digital course. So that changed and that was great. I mean, the revenue was fantastic from that avenue of using that strategy and I was able to help so many more people in an accessible way. And then, so that was 2020.

2021 continued to go up, grew the membership. I actually retired the course and really focused on the membership the most. And then in 2022, I actually saw a dip again and there's a few things that contributed to that. Number one, the economy. I'm not trying to point fingers, but everyone was kind of freaking out a little bit towards the end of 2022 and that happened. And for me, when I see these trends happening, I pay attention and I'm like, okay, does the business strategy need to change? Because things are changing. And the answer was yes. And so at the same time, I started writing a book. We had a lot of things going on personally as well. So I kind of took a back seat a little bit. I stayed focused on the membership, but I didn't take on any coaching clients. And I started writing the book. And then the book opened my eyes to what I really love teaching. And it's funny that it's not marketing. I still love marketing and I think I'll always teach it, but there's that before piece that I'm really passionate about.

So now the business model is really more of, I still have the membership, I'm still doing coaching, but it's definitely more of speaking engagements as well as I think I'm bringing back, I don't know when this is going live, so we'll see how this goes, but I'm bringing back group coaching because I'm seeing the need for small groups and accountability and in a membership that's larger, you can't do that as well. And so, I'm bringing back group coaching, which I'm personally super pumped about.

Mary Killelea: That is awesome. And you heard it here first.

Amanda McKinney: Yeah, I'm like, well, there we go. I spilled the beans.

Mary Killelea: Wow. There's so much done back there. And I love, thank you for being so open. Sometimes it feels like you would love to know what you just shared, but either people don't feel like they have the ability to ask you that question. So I really do. Yeah, no, I think that's wonderful, especially for people out there listening who are entrepreneurs trying to figure out. One of the key things that I think you said was you're really in tuned to the trends of your business and you're nimble enough to realize that you've got to pivot within your business in order to succeed.

Amanda McKinney: Yeah, I kind of riffed on that topic oddly enough this morning on Instagram, like how interesting that this is coming back up. I get asked often, you probably get asked often, every podcaster, author, anyone who coaches or talks to entrepreneurs will be asked, what is the secret sauce for success in entrepreneurship? Spoiler alert, there isn't one. I wish there was, but I do think that there's one thing that really sets people apart into two groups. And it's if they're willing to change things. And I am like the most structured person that you'll probably ever know. Like I have a plan for everything. Everything in my pantry has a freaking label on it. Like it is so structured around here, drives my family crazy. But that's who I am. And so entrepreneurship is very non-structured. And so it's really thrown me off. But once I realized, like I had this moment when I was, I track everything, revenue, time, everything. Like you could ask me about stats for everything in my business, and I'd probably have to look at a spreadsheet, but I have it tracked somewhere.

And so I knew when revenue was going down the first time, the 50th time, like however many times down the road. And when you see that happening, it's like you have a moment where you get to choose, well, am I going to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result? Or am I going to try and do something different? And that's where I think if we can put a secret sauce, something together of who is successful and who is it, it's the person who is like, I'm going to try something new and see if it works.

Mary Killelea: Yep. Absolutely agree. This is fun. So as an entrepreneur, you wear so many different hats. What advice do you have for people who feel overwhelmed, obviously, but there's also the type of people who are entrepreneurs who don't focus on the money-making activities. They focus on the things that they like or that they're good at. How do you get them to focus on those important money-making activities?

Amanda McKinney: Oh gosh, that is a great question. And I would probably say, gosh, that changes person by person sometimes. And that's the beauty of coaching versus I love my membership in the courses and all of the things that I've had. I really enjoy those digital products, but sometimes it's really nice to have more of a connection where it's like, hey, Mary, what's going on? Why aren't you doing the thing? And I love that part. And that's the beauty of it. And I've coined this term. I came up with it a while ago and it ended up in the book, which is really fun. And it's called procrasti-working. Yes, it's a word I made up and we all know what procrastinating is. We procrastinate, we know we need to do this thing, but we don't want to do it. There's tons of reason why psychology digs into this all the time. But what I found is I would procrasti-work, I would do things in my business like you're talking about the things I think are fun. Instagram, I love Instagram. I could spend all day on Instagram. The other thing is I can be a slave to my email inbox. If I am not careful, like if I don't know what to focus on, I will check email.

And someone said this, I wish I could give credit to whoever said this first, but like your email is a task list from someone else. Oh, I like that. Isn't that so good? Yes. And so I think sometimes I'll just call myself out. I don't know if anyone else will relate to this, but it's like, if I'm not feeling productive, I'm going to go see what someone else wants me to do so I can do it. And I'm going to take action on that thing. So that's just me calling myself out on that one. But when we find that we're procrasti-working, it's important to go back to that MIT of like, what is the most important thing? And fortunately enough, I've worked with so many amazing entrepreneurs who I like to call accidental entrepreneurs who stumble into entrepreneurship from following a passion or a hobby. And when they do that, they have such a passion for what they're doing that they want to do that thing all the time. And they don't necessarily want to do the other things like marketing that will make the revenue come in. And so we have to tap into what is fun for them.

Most people come to my virtual doorstep at this point, because of marketing, and they think marketing sucks. Like I'm just going to be real open with that one. Like, usually they're like, I hate marketing. What they mean is, I think social media is awful. Yeah. And they're and I'm like, you don't even have to be there. It's okay. You could do something else. And marketing isn't sucky. You can do it in a fun way. And so what we have to do is find how can it be fun for them? Now, not everything in business is going to be fun.

When I first started my business, the accounting part scared the pants off me. I was really scared with it. I didn't know what I was going to do, how I was going to manage dealing with budgets and spreadsheets and all the things and bookkeeping. And now I think it's really fun. So it's really interesting. And I think it's just finding the system that works for you. And not everything will be fun. Of course, like there's other things I don't think are fun. But we have to make it manageable. Now, some of the ways that you can do that are to not do it anymore. Like there's some things you can just not do. Like just because it brings in revenue doesn't mean you have to do it. If you do need to do it, if it is something that you want to do, figure out how either a system or a person can help you. So, systems like it's worth the money to make something easier. A lot of people don't want to pay money for a system like, oh, this one's free. This one's $15 a month. And I could say $15. And I am here for saving money. Like I am a hoarder of money. But if that $15 will save you several hours and your sanity, like pay the $15 for the system.

Also people, and I know not everyone can hire someone right away. I don't have any full-time employees, but I do have contractors that take away some of the things that I don't do well or don't enjoy doing. And so that has helped me in multiple ways. And to come back to like the boundaries and time. I hired someone, she's just phenomenal. And basically, when I hired her and was interviewing her, I was like, I suck at delegating and I need you to help me learn how to delegate. And I then told her, like, these are the time boundaries I have, and she holds me accountable for them. So, she's worth her weight in gold.

Mary Killelea: I am so excited that your book is coming out. It's coming out in June, right?

Mary Killelea: Yes, June, 2023. Okay. I got the little sneak peek. Your chapter, you have a chapter dedicated to your YOU promise. Can you talk about that?

Amanda McKinney: It's your promise to yourself. It's going to be your compass. It's going to be your guide. Just like I talked about, if my business goes away tomorrow, and I want to open up that floral shop, my YOU promise gets to help me do that. And so your YOU promise, the Y stands for why you want to be an entrepreneur. So that deep down honest why that you don't have to share with anybody else. And really understanding that. Yeah. The O is the opportunity to define success in your core values on your terms. And so of course, digging in understanding what those two things mean. And I talk about values in a unique way. Unique because I found a really cool exercise to walk people through to create values. And I love that it does not have anything to do with a list of core values that you pick from. I think that is such a limiting thing that this exercise really helps. So you define success and define your core values. And the U stands for unapologetically using what works for you. And in this section, I really go into identifying the boundaries that you need to achieve the success that you have defined. Finding your support system, understanding how to use your strengths, defining and setting your goals.

And of course, we talk about finances as well. Because that if I say in the book, like, if you don't know your finances, you just have a very expensive hobby.

Mary Killelea: That's so true. It's so true. Well, I love that concept. The Y-O-U concept, you promise. I love that. You help others with defining success on their terms. Let me ask you personally, how you define success. And I think you might have alluded to that earlier with your freedom.

Amanda McKinney: It is a little bit. And I love that you're putting them together because they're really, together because they're really, really close of the why. The why for being an entrepreneur is the like, for me, I want to be in control of my schedule, who I work with, what I work on. That is the why. My success, and it is similar, but it is different. The way I define success now, and I say that very intentionally of how I define it now, isn't what I would have defined it at 16, and it's not going to be what I would define it as 60, most likely, I would guess. So, my definition right now is, I feel successful when I am present in my life and content with what I have, but challenging myself in new ways. And it took a solid year for me to get to that sentence, Mary. And I don't think it takes a year for in reality, but I struggled so much, because I had a wakeup call when I was really close to hitting six figures one year, and I was like, almost hitting it, and I was hell bent on hitting it. And my business coach was like, why do you want to hit this number so bad? Like, you're so close. I don't understand why. Why do you want to hit that number? What is that amount going to do? And my answer was, I feel like it's the right thing to do. Like, I feel like it's the next step. And he was like, I think you should sit with that question and really understand that. So I took it to who I call my biz besties. And I said, okay, he asked me this question. I'm freaking out over here because I feel like I don't know what I'm doing. And one of my friends was like, well, what does success feel like for you, Amanda? And I said, well, I'm trying to hit six figures. And she was like, that's the goal you set, but what does success feel like? And I thought, those two things are different. Oh, my gosh.

And I had this moment of like, oh, my gosh, I cannot believe that I've never separated these two things and asked myself that. So then I went on a whole journey. If you listen to my podcast, basically all of 2022, I asked people, what is success for you? And how did you get there? Like, I just used it as I just interviewed a ton of people trying to understand success and how people define it as entrepreneurs and really trying to figure it out. And this part is so cool. Through interviews on the podcast, as well on the book, what I found was that people would say something that included a number. I want to hit this number, this number of students, this number of clients, this number of my bank account, this number of hours worked, there was a number. But eventually, as they were talking, they would say something that led me to what I call the “so that” part of the sentence, I want to make $50,000 in my business so that I can take my family on one vacation a year. I want to bring in six new clients a month so that I can pay my mortgage. And it was always this so that that kept happening. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that's the answer. Sure, there's a number because we have to hit it in some way. But what's the so that?

And so for me, I started to realize my so that was that I really feel so successful when I am present in every moment like you and me on this podcast, we are here. I don't know. I mean, things are going on outside that door of my office, and I don't understand what's going on, nor do I need to. Because this space is all I am present. And I feel so successful when I can do that. And so that is great. And then being content for me is a difficult one, because I'm always wanting to achieve more. And so that's why I balanced it with I want to be content with what I have. But I do like to challenge myself. So always challenging myself in some new way, which could be floral arranging.

Mary Killelea: Mm hmm. Well, and that cash contentment, I think, has a bad stigma to it in that people think that you're not ambitious if you're content.

Amanda McKinney: Right.

Mary Killelea: And I think you can be both.

Amanda McKinney: Yeah, I think you can because and I think, you know, once I realized I had I had a business coach asked me like, What is enough for you to bring home? What is enough? And I said I gave a number. This is what I'd like to bring home to my family budget. And she said, Okay, great. Okay. That's, that's great. If you make more than that, that's fine. But now you know what the enough is. And I thought, Gosh, what a beautiful statement that is. And so to me, it's like, sure, we have to pay bills, we have to do these things, like, we're working for a reason, right? You know, we need these things. And so I'm not trying to make light of it. But when I look around, and I see like, I have so much, I have so much, it's okay for me to strive to want more. But I need to find contentment with what I have, or I'm not going to appreciate what I have in the future. Because I heard some I listen and consume so much information that I wish I could remember who says what. But someone said, like, what you have today, or what's overwhelming you today to come back to that feeling of that overwhelm? What's overwhelming you today is what you prayed for six months ago.

Mary Killelea: Goodness.

Amanda McKinney: Yeah. Right? Doesn't that hit hard? And so if you're feeling overwhelmed, that may be the sentence to read.

Mary Killelea: Oh, interesting. You touched on that you had kind of some girlfriends that you could bounce off some ideas. What advice do you have for others in finding their own support system?

Amanda McKinney: Oh, yes, this is a whole chapter in the book, by the way, because I believe in finding your support system so much. And I think there's a lot of people that can fill this support system. And we need some of them, sometimes and not, sometimes like it depends. And so the first people that you really want to fill with your support system, like if you have this bucket of people and the quantity doesn't matter, is friends and family who already support you. This is not rude Aunt Sally who does not give a rip about your business. This is like cousin Amanda, who's like, you can do this. Like, who's the cheerleader in your family that you want to go to and share? That's the support system that you need. Right there. You've got someone already built in. Friends, family that you already have.

And then I would really encourage everyone to think about mentors in a different way, because I used to think mentors were you pay someone, it's this formal thing. And then I realized, I've got all these books on the shelf, I listened to all these podcasts, they're mentoring me. All of those people are pouring into me and helping me in my business. They are my mentors. So, then I was like, Oh, my gosh, I've got all these people in my corner. Like they're, they're here, they're giving me information. This is fantastic. And then we have what I like to call biz besties. Now, these are the relationships that will form over time. And they do take time and energy, but they're so worth it. I mean, these are the people that I can guarantee anyone who finds these people will say years down the road, I would not have the business I have today without them. And they are who they're your friends, but they're first and foremost, another business owner. And it starts not as friends, it starts as some sort of coffee chat, usually, or some sort of connection, where you connect on some level, maybe you're on a zoom call, and that person asked a question and like a big group, and you had that same question, you could message them and be like, thank you for asking that question. I had the same one connection. Okay, you want to have a coffee chat one day? Great. And then that coffee chat turns into maybe more, not everyone is going to end up being a biz bestie. But the ones that you really connect with, you can seriously talk about the hardships of entrepreneurship, that your friends that are not running a business will have no idea what you're talking about. And those people who are supportive, but not business owners, you need them. But you need the people who are running a business, because they understand the crap. When you're like, my email systems down, I don't know what to do. Or like, I'm running into this tech issue, or revenue is down, and I'm freaking out.

Mary Killelea: Well, and I think that's what makes you such a good business coach is because you are experiencing the same or have or you relate to your customers so well.

Amanda McKinney: Yeah, I mean, it would be so difficult for me to work with someone or for me to be coached by someone who isn't an entrepreneur, because I would be really frustrated to be like, I don't know that you understand what's happening right now. Because there's weird things that happen. Like when you get that first email that says I want to refund from a course that you created from scratch, you're like, I failed as a human being. That's what happened. I remember that email, I cried, I walked outside, I didn't know what to do. By the way, I gave that person a refund, all things are fine. I then asked for feedback, right? Like all things were fine. But there's weird feelings that come up with it that other people might not understand. So that's really important.

And then the other people that I think are in your support system are coaches and therapists. I wish that every person who files for an LLC also got a therapist at the same time.

Mary Killelea: That's perfect. That would be a good world.

Amanda McKinney: Isn't it great?

Mary Killelea: Yeah. So one thing that I've heard you say throughout the conversation is openly admitting to failures along the way, but also rebounding from those learnings. How important is failure to a business's success?

Amanda McKinney: Gosh, thank you for reflecting that. It's really like an interesting thing to hear something when it's like you've said this over and over. And I do, I really do call attention to the fact that I've failed many times. And I don't do it to, I don't know, make light of it. I do it to say like, it's part of it. And I don't know that I think more people are talking about it. But I wish everyone would all the time. Like, I almost want to have like screenshots of my first website and rejection emails and all of these things just to show to be like, look, this happens. This is normal. You are not a failure. And I really think it's important to know that going in, like those things are going to happen.

And I think, this is going to sound so cliche when I'm like, I don't really call them failures. I mean, technically I kind of do, but I don't look at them as failures, if that makes sense, because I think the only way I could fail at entrepreneurship is if I just threw my hands up and gave up. If I decided to shut down my business, that would not be a failure. If everyone left my membership today, that would not be a failure of business. There would be a problem that I would need to figure out. But that, in my opinion, I feel like entrepreneurs are problem solvers. If I see a problem that I can fix, by golly, I'm going to fix it. And there's going to be a new business. And so I just think it's part of it.

Now I will say, you're getting the 2023 version of Amanda. 2017 version of Amanda would have been so scared to tell you I failed. I would have been so scared. And so I think it's fair for someone that is possibly not in the same place as me to be like, gosh, I can't believe she's talking about failure and making $0 on this thing. And, well, the sting isn't there anymore. You know, I've gotten through that. And stings will always happen because I'm challenging myself, because I'm trying to get to that next level. Like, I'm going to keep failing. I'm going to keep failing. But like you said, failure is a stepping stone or failure is part of getting to success. And just like my definition of success, being present and content, I am not those things every day. I fail at being present often. But I try to do better every day. Am I content with everything I have? No. Catch myself wanting new things all the time. But I feel successful when I can do those things. And so failure and success, I think, can live in the same day and be part of the same story.

Mary Killelea: That is awesome. All right. Well, I have one last question for you. What does to be bolder mean to you?

Amanda McKinney: I love this question. I've been listening to quite a few of your podcast episodes lately, and I just adore everyone's answer to it. And so, when I was thinking about mine, I thought the word unapologetic is so, so full of boldness, in my opinion of to be bold is to unapologetically chase your definition of success. To be bold, I don't think means to be rude or loud. I think it means to be steady. I think it means to be confident, even when you're not sure. Like you're confident that you can figure it out. You're confident in your resources. Even when you're unsure about things, I think that is what it's all about. And so, when you can be who you are as the leader of your company, when I'm talking about being an entrepreneur, it's like you're stepping into being a leader, even if it's one person, even if it's multiple people, you're being this leader. And it's so important to be unapologetic with it and know what you want and go after it.

And from my experience, when we can step into being bold, more often than not, we're going to meet people like you who want to help lift us up. When we can be bold in what we want, not arrogant, but bold, we can find other people to help us lift us up and we can lift them up.

Mary Killelea: That is fabulous. Anything else you want to say before we sign off? I want to make sure that you have a chance to tell everyone how to get in touch with you.

Amanda McKinney: Yes, you can find all things about me at my website, which is AmandaMcKinney.com for or yes, AmandaMcKinney.com. And you can find the podcast there, which is the unapologetic entrepreneur, the book is listed there. And I am working on, I believe the URL is going to be Amanda McKinney.com forward slash success. I am working on a free training of how to define success for yourself, because I thought that's the piece I'm going to pull out of the book, because I want everyone to know it. Even if you don't buy the book, I want you to define success for you. So I'm just going to make myself do it before this episode goes live.

Mary Killelea: Oh my God. It's been a great talking with you. Thank you so much for being here.

Amanda McKinney: Thank you, Mary.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guests. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number two, little b, bolder.com.