Career Growth Lessons from Megan Dalla-Camina, Women’s Leadership Coach | Career Advice for Women in Business and Tech

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 84
Featuring Megan Dalla-Camina

Episode Title: #84 Women Rising: Megan Dalla-Camina's Path to Empowering Female Leaders

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Megan Dalla-Camina



Mary Killelea: Hi there, my name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the 2B Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and Tech. 2B Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you, encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Thanks for tuning in. I am thrilled to have Megan Dalla-Camina here from Australia. Founder and CEO of Women Rising, Megan is known around the world for her brave and refreshing approach to women's leadership empowerment and well-being. A celebrated coach, influential writer, researcher, and advocate for change, Megan draws on a decade as an award-winning entrepreneur and a distinct fusion of science and spirit, grounded in a 20 career as an executive and strategist for corporate heavyweights including IBM, GE, and PWC. She is the best-selling author of three books on women's development, and her work has been featured in hundreds of media outlets globally, including Forbes, Fortune, Psychology Today, CNN, Inc, Fast Company, and Thrive Global. In 2023, Megan was named B&T's Women's Leading Tech Awards Woman and Mentor of the Year in recognition of her impact as an innovator in women's leadership and empowerment across the globe. The renowned Women Rising program, supported by Microsoft, is a fully virtual, scalable, and proven personal and professional development program that has empowered thousands of women from more than 400 companies in 35 countries over the past 18 months. Thank you so much for being here. Today, you have, okay, such a successful company with Women Rising, three books. What drives your success, and how do you stay so focused?

Megan Dalla-Camina: Oh, gosh. Big questions right off the bat. What drives my success? Look, it's such an interesting question. I feel compelled and inspired to support women. Like, it really is that at a simple level. I, and I didn't start like I, this big corporate career had nothing to do with, you know, with women. I didn't know I was, you know, buried deep in the patriarchy until I was in my 40s, so it wasn't like this is my mission and my life's work from when I was a, you know, a young child. It's, it's not that. But I think as I went through my corporate career and I hit my, you know, hit my 40s and looked back on everything, you know, you pull the thread, right, that red thread, you pull it all the way through, and I started to see all of the things that had happened and all of the unseen invisible things that sat around my life, my work, my career, you know, society, the male dominated industries and companies that I worked in, all of the bias, all of the impacts, the challenges that we put on women, you know, as a young single mother trying to do a big executive role. And the more I really unpacked that and my own experience, burn out, you know, all of the things that we can talk about, I just got ignited with this question of, how do we as women do the things that we really want to do in the world, and be well and thriving and be able to take care of ourselves and be awake as women? How do we do that? And that was a burning question that I got when I was about 36 after my big burn out, and that really then stemmed the rest of my career up until now. So yeah, I want to help women. I want to support women. It's just we're all on the same journey, yeah.

Mary Killelea: I think it's fantastic, and it's very aligned to, you know, the podcast and why I do what I do. It fills me up, it charges us. Tell us about the roles when you were in corporate America and walk us through kind of that career journey or that path and then how it led you to stepping back and designing the business that you have today.

Megan Dalla-Camina: Yeah, so again, I didn't have a dream when I was a teenager to be a corporate executive. I was a rebellious actress and dancer my whole life until I was like 23. So being in corporate was the furthest thing from my mind. I would have laughed you out of the room. But a couple of things happened in my early 20s. I got really sick. A couple of years later, I had a car accident, and it was just like fate leading me down this path, right? You're not meant to be on this path over here of a, you know, actress and dancer. And I ended up at GE in the information services business, the electronic commerce business of GE, before electronic commerce, and kind of literally landed there as I was recovering from my car accident in an admin role. And then about six months later ended up, or 12 months later ended up in marketing, and that was the beginning of the love affair that I had with marketing, but also with corporate America. Like, I, it was like I found my home. So I spent five years at GE in Australia, Asia, and the US in marketing roles. It was pre, you know, e-business, e-commerce. I went through that wave, which was very exciting. I went from GE to PWC in a marketing and comms role, and in that phase of my career, Enron happened. Some of your listeners might be too young, right, but massive changes in the professional services and accounting landscape. Worked on, you know, those big things in New York, which was incredibly exciting. The consulting business of PWC was going to IPO, was going to split off and, you know, become its own multi-billion company. The day before we were hoping, I was in New York, and IBM bought the consulting business of PWC. I went to IBM, spent 10 years at IBM in head of marketing roles and then as head of strategy for a $5 billion division of IBM. And in that time, a number of things happened at IBM. I became a mother and then a single mother when my son was 18 months old, became a young executive, so I was like a 34 year old executive on the leadership team. And fast forward a couple of years, completely burnt myself out, yeah. And then, you know, spent another seven years as head of strategy at IBM. I also looked after gender diversity, nice, and that ignited, you know, my passion for the things that we just spoke about. And then 10 years ago, I left my corporate career to start my own business specifically focused around women's leadership and, yeah, writing books and doing the things that I do now.

Mary Killelea: So that leap of faith, that's a big step to leave the comforts and security of, you know, the paycheck, the 401K, and all that goes with that. What did you tell yourself to make that? Did you say, I could always go back to the corporate if I had to, or what was it that got you over that hump? Because that holds back so many people, those golden handcuffs.

Megan Dalla-Camina: Yes, oh, like I think it was a few things. Number one, it wasn't a quick decision. It took me about three years to chart my course. I was still a single parent. My son's older now, but he was, you know, what, 12 at the time. Single parent, you know, school fees, mortgage, all of the things that we all deal with. So it took me three years, and like the first part of that was I started looking around me and there was no job I wanted. And I thought I was a corporate lifer. I thought I was going to be in a corporation. I liked it, I loved it. But when I really started to connect the passion and the purpose for what was next, I could, I just couldn't see it. So first thing, it was, I built an exit strategy. And I also had a plan B, and the plan B was, when I left, I didn't resign. I went out on long service leave because I had about six months long service leave. I'd never taken much of my leave. So I knew I had a safety net. I could go back. My CEO knew I wasn't coming back. He's like, you like, see you later. But I knew I could. And as a single parent with financial responsibilities, that was, you know, that sort of eased my heart. And I also presented clients for myself when I left, nice. So I was mitigating my risk so I could see a pathway to earning enough money in my business that I would be able to cover my responsibilities. And if I don't, I can't, I'll go back, yeah. Still massive, it's still a massive leap, right? As you say, you still have to get over that hump. Can I really do all the inner critic stuff, the mindset, all of that I had to deal with?

Mary Killelea: I think it's so great to talk about it because I think some people may see you today and look at your history but not know that you were thoughtful in having an exit strategy and may aspire to just do it but not know how. So I think that's so important that you mapped it out. Yes, let's talk about your current business, who it serves, how it's evolved. I want to hear it from you because I've learned about it and I'm so impressed.

Megan Dalla-Camina: Thank you. So Women Rising, so we're a women's empowerment and leadership development company is the best way to kind of frame, you know, sort of what we do. The core of what we do is the Women Rising program. So this is a four month fully virtual program that we run that covers, so covers all of the things I wish I'd had, you know, and then all of the things that I learned from doing a couple of different master's degrees, getting deep into the science as well as the practice. So we go on a four month journey from looking at, you know, what's your life vision, what do you really want for yourself, what does your purpose look like, which most women, and we can talk about this if you want to, have never asked themselves because we're always last on the list. So we look at life vision and purpose. We look at an evidence-based framework to unlock what we call radical confidence, that really true, deep centered, you know, confidence and power. And then we go through all of the building blocks for, you know, for your career. We're looking at career mastery, personal branding, mentors and sponsors, influence and impact, executive presence, communicating with power, yeah, like all of the pieces. We go really deeply into well-being and energy, things that we don't focus on enough for most of us as women. We're looking at grit and grace, like how do you have the grit to go after your long-term hard goals with the grace to know when to pivot, when to let go, when to move on. And then we close it out by looking at leading change, like what is our role in creating change, overcoming bias in the system and creating better teams, workplaces, organizations for, for all of us. So it's this beautiful virtual journey. We have around 1,500 women globally in every cohort, and it's growing really fast because of the impact that we're seeing. And it's pre-recorded lessons with live coaching and beautiful support through the community, and we're in 37 countries. So it's a very diverse mix of women. So that's the core of what we do. And then we also have this male allies program, because the time is so far gone for all of this being women's issues, right?

Mary Killelea: Right.

Megan Dalla-Camina: We want to empower women, which is my primary goal, but we have to bring the men along on their own journey to be better leaders and to be better male allies. So that's the core of, yeah, that's the core of what we do.

Mary Killelea: I think it's great that you have the ally segment or cohort as well, because there are men who want to do better and that are learning. Oh, I just didn't know. I didn't realize you could teach me, and I will help you. And I love that your program serves both audiences. So when we're talking about the women that you serve, what are the age ranges or is there a certain demographic?

Megan Dalla-Camina: Yeah, look, it's a really interesting question, and it's the first time I've ever seen this. But we, our program supports all women, all roles, all ages, all levels, all industries. And it's because the way the curriculum and the framework is designed is it really meets you where you're at. So if you're coming in as a 25 year old woman asking the question, what do I want for my life and my purpose and what are my confidence challenges? The teachings meet you right where you're at. We also have general managers, partners in professional services firms, really senior women, who are in the program. The questions are the same questions, it's just obviously you're at a different end of the spectrum. But, you know, women who are 45 or 55 asking the questions, where's my confidence lagging here? What's my inner critic saying? Why am I stuck? Why can't I take action? What's my next level of authentic leadership? It's all the same. So we get this beautiful, again, diversity of age, experience, culture, everything together. It's really unique.

Mary Killelea: In the program guide, you had a statement that really caught my eye. It said you can learn to be confident. It's not a personality trait, it's a skill you build, and you just need to be shown how. The lack of confidence is such a huge hurdle for so many women. Can you give us an example of how your program helps women address and teaches them how to have more self-confidence?

Megan Dalla-Camina: Yeah, in all of the research that we do and all of the research that everybody else has done around this, we know exactly what you said, right? It is one of the most fundamental challenges, even when we as women don't identify that that's our challenge, if that makes sense. Like we have women who come and do work with us and they think, I don't have any confidence challenges, but as soon as we get into the confidence module and we're looking at the evidence and the research and the inner critic work, they're like, oh my gosh, this is the barrier to everything that I want to do. So, but again, so many women in their careers get told by well-meaning managers or mentors, you just need some more confidence, but very rarely, if ever, does that come with here's the evidence-based framework for how to do it, and there's nothing wrong with you, yeah, which is what we say. You just haven't been taught how to do it. You're not born with it or not born with it. So the model that we go through is in a couple of parts. We look at strengths, and we're looking at character strengths. And if anybody hasn't done it, go do the VIA character survey at viacharacter.org. It's free, takes you 15 minutes or less. And it looks at your inherent traits and values versus your skills, right? So we're looking at what is really core because we're trying, when we're looking at confidence, we're trying to get back to the core of who you are, not fake it till you make it and become something that you're not. So we look at strengths and how, like what's the pathway to your authentic self. And then the core of it is around confidence, is around understanding your inner critic, understanding the thoughts that are keeping you from taking the action that you want to take. And we teach a three-part model around really starting to catch those stories, really understand your inner narrative, and challenge the cognitive dissonance by asking, is that true? It's like my favorite question, is that true? Is that thought true? So that you can then reframe that inner critic narrative to get into that growth mindset that will lead you to taking the action. And when we see women work that process again and again and again, that is simple but work inducing. Like you've got to do the work to really get to a sense of true confidence.

Mary Killelea: Well, I know you have eight modules in this Rising program. Can you just give us a little bit of meat around each of those?

Megan Dalla-Camina: Yes, absolutely. I'd love to. So the model I designed from, like, my career but also my academic journey as, you know, really getting into science and evidence and practice, because I think those two things together, I actually talk about science, spirit, experience, and that's the holistic nature of what's in all of the modules. So we start with module one, and we're putting women right in the center of their own journey, which can be a very uncomfortable place for a lot of women, by looking at life vision, meaning, and purpose. So what is it that you want for your life? And we do a very guided, safe journey around unpacking what do I want? Like, if I could have anything for my life, what would I have? Where do I find more meaning with the work that I'm currently doing? Because again, I think we often think I've got to throw it all in and do some massive change to find meaning, and it's just not true, right? There's four scientific ways to find more meaning in your work. And then what's my purposeful path? Like, what could be a greater purpose on the horizon for me? So that's module one. And we find that women go into this, 90% of the five and a half thousand women we've worked with over the last 18 months have never asked themselves the question, what do I want for myself? That's crazy. So they get thrown straight in there. So that's module one. Module two is this confidence module, so looking at strengths, inner criticism, self-compassion, another big topic for women, and growth mindset as the four key pathways to building that true agency and confidence that we have as women. Module three, we move into the career lens, and we're looking at our model around career mastery. Where are you on your career mastery curve? Really helpful to be able to plot yourself and say, I'm at the novice phase, or I'm actually at mastery, and that's why I'm feeling restless. How do I go to the next mastery curve? We're also looking at personal branding and what you want to be known for, and mentors and sponsors. It staggers me how few women understand the roles of mentors and sponsors and how to really utilize them. The research tells us that men have many more sponsors than women have, and they pull them through organizations. So we help women really understand that. Module four is a big module around authentic leadership, and we're really looking here at the changing models of leadership, and specifically around feminine and masculine traits in leadership, which is non-gendered. You know, a lot of us have worked or continue to work in really masculine workplaces, which don't serve women, right, when we're in our authentic state. It doesn't serve us. And there's so many layers of why women leave organizations or park themselves somewhere. So we get into that. We're looking at the double bind and the likability penalty, these big issues for women at work around gender bias. And we also look at vulnerability and presence, Brene Brown's work, Professor Amy C's work, and how that impacts how we show up with our perfectionism, our perfecting the armor that we wear, and how that stops us from being our authentic self. Then we go into influence and impact, executive presence, communicating with power, managing conflict, derailment factors, another thing that so many of us don't look at. And we look at 12 things that could potentially derail your career and what to do about them. Well-being, a module that's very near and dear to my heart. I went and did a master's degree in wellness after my burnout because I wanted to get into the science of it. So we're looking at physical, mental, emotional, spiritual well-being and energy. How to manage your energy, how to protect your energy and boundaries, how to protect the things that are most important to you. Then the grit and grace that I talked about, grit, grace, resilience, stress, and then the leading change piece. And we find that as women come out of this self-development, self-leadership journey, and we get to module eight around leading change, they're really lit up and fired up about making it better, not just for themselves but for all women everywhere. So we, that's the movement, you know, that we're seeing and creating, yeah.

Mary Killelea: That's a beautiful cycle, and I honestly am considering this for myself, so you're talking to me as much as to my audience. How often does the cohort run?

Megan Dalla-Camina: So we run twice a year, March and September. And the live component of it, we do three time slots, so we pick up all global time zones. So we do, yeah, spread across the day so that everyone can get the live coaching as well as the, you know, the content, the lessons, the community support.

Mary Killelea: What do you see holds women in leadership roles back from being great leaders?

Megan Dalla-Camina: The way that I look at it is there's kind of like three components of that. There's what's ours to own as women. Are we showing up authentically? What's our mindset? How are we dealing with our inner critic? How are we building the career that we want in the way that we want to build it? And are we showing up as authentic leaders for women? Where's the balance of our feminine masculine traits? Where's our armor? All the things that we talk about in the program. So that's sort of the first part, the most important part, us. Then there's the system, right, and what is the environment that we're in? Where are the structural and systemic challenges and bias barriers that are in the system, and where do we fit into that? Yeah, can we change it? Can we not change it? Do we have a cohort of people who are trying to create change? Do we have good intention and action in the organization that we're in? And then this piece, this piece around male allies is of critical importance, right? Men are the ones in positions of power. There's no arguing that. So, you know, again, is the structure that we're in, the organization that we're in, do they have ownership for helping men and male leaders be better allies, really understand and advocate for women? Whether that's their peers, you know, as leaders, whether it's pulling women through the organization, changing the culture, etc. So we have to look at all of it for women to be successful in the organizations that they're in.

Mary Killelea: That makes so much sense. The pay gap for women is real. I mean, we know that from the data. What can we as women do to advocate for ourselves when it comes to getting equal pay and or talk about money with ease?

Megan Dalla-Camina: Yes, well, look, talking about money with ease may be a step too far, and I don't think we need to be able to talk about money with ease to talk about money and ask for a pay rise. So I think, like, the expectations that we have about how we're going to feel about talking about money, particularly for the vast majority of women, I think, who get brought up and socialized to not ask, to accept what's given to them, to be grateful for it, well, you're here, aren't you, you know, so stop complaining about it. We may never have ease around it. Doesn't mean we can't do it. Really understanding and owning our worth as women. Like, here's the contribution that I make. Here are the skills. Here's the value that I add. This is why I deserve to be here, not just, oh, thank you for letting me be here, right? All of that structural work, the confidence work, is really important. Like if we're, what I would recommend for women is if they want to go and ask for a pay rise is to do their inner critic work. And we've got a free guide on our website. It goes, it's really detailed, goes through the model that I talk about, catch the story, is that true, reframe the story. Go do that work around the stories that you're telling, your narrative that's coming up for you when you're thinking about asking for a pay rise, negotiating for a pay rise, putting forward your worth, and work that model. So that you can really understand, oh, I think that they're going to fire me, or, you know, they're going to think, who does she think she is asking for a pay rise, and she should just be grateful that she's got a job. What are all the stories that you tell? Because the more we can work through that, yeah, then we can get to that place of owning our worth, understanding our narrative, and then build a strategy and a business case to say, hey, this is my worth. Here's what the market pays. Here's what you're paying me. Let's have a conversation about that.

Mary Killelea: Great advice. Okay, so you've written three books. Let's talk about each of the books for a bit, the inspiration behind them. Where did it come from internally, and what should the readers gain from it? We can start with your first book, Get Real About Having It All: Be Your Best, Love Your Career, and Bring Back Your Sparkle. Then we'll go down the list.

Megan Dalla-Camina: Okay, gosh, that feels like a lifetime ago. I wrote that book, so that was my first book. I wrote that when I was still in the corporate world. That came out the year before I left. And it was a response to everything that I'd learned between, well, my whole career, but since my burnout when I was 36 to that book coming out when I was 42. I'm now 52, just so people can have that range. And looking at the key areas, you know, this is how you will be well and thrive. This is how to think about your career, and this is how to take care of your holistic self and, you know, bring back that sparkle because that's what I lost, right, when I burnt out, which I see for so many women. So that was "Get Real About Having It All, yeah, my first book. I got a big publishing deal, which was a complete surprise because I think it just hit a bit of a zeitgeist moment about this conversation about having it all, which we so need to get past. So that was my, yeah, like let's get real about the cost and how we, you know, can thrive as women. The second book, Lead Like a Woman, was about, you know, the, I guess the next depth of that, and how do we thrive and be authentic as women and as women leaders in our career? It's when I first, in the years before that came out, I was really starting to investigate these feminine and masculine traits in leadership. I started a PhD around women's leadership and feminine power, and that's when I really started to ask these questions. Do women in power look different to men in power? What is the essence of the power? What are the traits when we're our most authentic selves as women? What are they? Are they different to how men show up in their most authentic? All of that went into the mix before that book came out, and it's now flowed all the way through to the work. And then Simple Soulful Sacred was my most recent book, quite a departure from the others. Simple Soulful Sacred is like a deep soul journey for women in a very digestible way. But, you know, we're looking at simplicity, comfort, you know, sacredness, soulfulness, the heroine's journey for women, how we build courage, how we deeply take care of ourselves, how we become sovereign as women. It's a book about really claiming our power.

Mary Killelea: That's beautiful, and I love the way that each one represents kind of the span of your life.

Megan Dalla-Camina: Yes.

Mary Killelea: I also wanted to ask you because I don't know if it's true, but I want your validation. Are you working on a fourth book, and anything you can hint about that?

Megan Dalla-Camina: I am working on a fourth book right now. I'm hoping it's going to be out in February if I get it written in time, and it is Women Rising. So it is, it's so interesting. It's everything that I teach in Women Rising right now, which is the combination of my life's work, you know, all of the different aspects. And we'll go deeply into the model and everything that I've just taught because I want to, the most common thing that women say about our program is that it's life changing. And I don't just want the women who are in our program to have that experience. I want all women to be able to pay 20 bucks and go and get the teachings and the knowledge and they have the self-reflection. So yeah, hopefully February.

Mary Killelea: All right, perfect. If you were 20 and starting over in your career, what would you do differently?

Megan Dalla-Camina: I would deeply take care of myself and trust myself, yeah.

Mary Killelea: And the world has changed so much now. It's different. We're a global economy, and there's, you know, new industries and career paths that are being created for innovation. It's changing from the traditional path of going to college, getting a job, and building a long career with a single company and working there till you retire. Like, that was what I grew up expecting to do. We have so many more options now. What advice do you tell women who may feel overwhelmed with all the options? Like battling that my parents did it this way, is this safe, is this another way I can do it? Like, what's your advice? It's hard to be young right now.

Megan Dalla-Camina: I think it is hard to be young right now. I've got a 22 year old son, and I watch him going through all of this, and, you know, his female friends. And I think it, I like, I think it's always hard to be young, right? I think they have their own unique challenges now. I'm always looking at things like, what's this, how simple can we make it? What's the minimum viable, you know, line through this? So for me, it comes down to a couple of things. It comes down to what am I really interested in? What am I excited about? What am I curious about? Where do I spend my time? Like, I watch my son and how so deeply immersed he is in the things that he loves in his spare time. It just consumes him. You know, he's doing a high performance sports degree. He's obsessed with, like, sports psychology and all the things coaching, and he's a coach. The things that we are so naturally interested in and curious about and excited about are a slipstream pathway to the work that will be most fulfilling for us. But what we so often do, as everybody, particularly women, particularly when we're young, is that we look at, well, that's not how my parents did it, or that's not what they want for me, or I should go and do this, or this is the safe path. And they shut down, you know, over a period of, you know, weeks, months, or years, all of that excitement, curiosity, interest that is guiding them down their purposeful path. So the advice that I always give is, it's why we start with life vision. Why do we start with meaning and purpose? Doesn't matter what age you are, because we want to tap back into that. We want to really tap into that. Doesn't need to be everything that you do, yeah, but we want to continually pick up the breadcrumbs of interest, curiosity, excitement so that we can let that path unfold for us rather than I'm going to shut that down, looks unsafe, I'm going to go over here. And then we get to what, 35, 45, 55, and go, oh, I really wish I'd done that, and it's too late, and all of the other things that come in later in our career. So tap in, get clear, and lean into those things that light you up and see where they lead you. That's my advice.

Mary Killelea: That's a perfect answer. That answers the perfect segue into my next question. What advice do you have for women listening who are older and worry about ageism or feeling stuck without many options because of their age?

Megan Dalla-Camina: Yes, and this comes up a lot from women in our community and in our broader community, right? Tens of thousands of women who are connected to us. Very real issues, yeah. So I just, anyone who is feeling that and dealing with that, I just want to, like, acknowledge and honor you for showing up because there's, again, the two sides of it. There's what's ours to own, what's our work to do around owning our worth, knowing everything that we bring and contribute, tapping into those exact things that I just spoke about, interest, passion, excitement, da da da, what's the path that I would follow, being clear about the life vision for the season that you're in, and not being afraid to ask those hard questions and do that work. And then there's the systemic. There's the bias, the ageism, all of the things that we know. And for women, sometimes that happens at 35, sometimes it happens at 55 or 65. So it, you know, you don't have to have gray hair to get to have ageism, right? Depends on all sorts of different parameters and also how we feel about ourselves, yeah, which can come much earlier than later. But doing, you know, doing that work. What do I want? What's next for me in this season? And where can I do that? Yeah. And for a lot of women, it's not going to be in the organization that they're currently in. They may need to build an exit strategy. They may need to go build their own business or get a side path happening for themselves. There may be a different industry or a different company that's going to see their value and acknowledge that and really yet nurture that next phase of their career. But it absolutely starts with us owning our own worth, being really clear. What are the stories I'm telling myself about what's currently going on for me, whether that's age or stage or season, and then getting the support and the tools and the frameworks to work through that to chart the next path.

Mary Killelea: That's wonderful. What does to be bolder mean to you?

Megan Dalla-Camina: To be bolder, it's such a great, it's such a great name that you have for your show. To be bolder for me is about being true. Like, it's being true to who we are, our most authentic self, owning our power, truly owning our power, being sovereign women. Because from that place, we can be whatever we want to be, including bolder, take brave action, be courageous. When we don't have that foundation of power and sovereignty, I think it's very hard to be bold. So yeah, for me, it all comes back to, all comes back to that.

Mary Killelea: Awesome. Well, your last question. What is your hope for the future of women?

Megan Dalla-Camina: Oh, goodness me. My hope for the future of women would be that all women in all places can be empowered, liberated, and live their lives and do the purposeful work that they truly want to do in this world, with all of the support that is available to them.

Mary Killelea: That's amazing. Well, I will include all the links to your information and some of the things you referenced in the show today. Thank you for your time and for being a guest on the show. I really appreciate it.

Megan Dalla-Camina: I thank you so much, and thank you for all of the work that you do supporting women. It's just been a real honor to have a conversation with you. So, thank you, thank you.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guest. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number 2, little b, bolder.com.