Career Growth Advice from Shama Hyder, Tech Marketing Leader | Career Tips for Women in Tech Marketing

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 86
Featuring Shama Hyder, Founder & CEO of Zen Media

Episode Title: #86 Shama Hyder on Revolutionizing PR and Marketing in the Digital Age

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Shama Hyder



Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you. Encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So, sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Hello there. Today's guest is Shama Hyder, who is an incredibly smart, hardworking businesswoman in tech. Shama is the founder and CEO of Zen Media, a very well-known PR and marketing agency servicing tech-driven B2B companies around the globe. Shama has been a media correspondent for Fox Business, MSNBC, Bloomberg, CW, and she's one of the world's leading experts on marketing and PR in the digital age. She has been named the Zen Master of Marketing by Entrepreneur Magazine and the Millennial Master of the Universe by Fast Company.

Shama has also been honored at both the White House and the United Nations as one of the top 100 young entrepreneurs in the country. She is the bestselling author of The Zen of Social Media Marketing and Momentum, How to Propel Your Marketing and Transform Your Brand in the Digital Age. Shama has delivered keynotes in over 20 countries and spoken for recognized brands including Chase, Tupperware, Inc., and so many others. As a result of her success, Shama has been the recipient of numerous awards, including the prestigious Technology Titan Emerging Company CEO Award. She was named one of the top 25 entrepreneurs under 25 by Business Week and one of the top under 30 entrepreneurs in America by Inc. Magazine and to the Forbes 30 under 30 list of movers and shakers. LinkedIn has named Heider one of the top voices in marketing and social media for four years in a row. She holds a BA in Communication Studies and a Masters in Organizational Communications and Technology, both from the University of Texas in Austin. She is a member of the 2020 class of Henry Crown Fellows with the Aspen Global Leadership Network at the Aspen Institute and I am so thrilled and pleased to have her here today. Thank you so much for joining.

Shama Hyder (Guest): Thank you, Mary, and thank you for that wonderful bio. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Mary Killelea: You're welcome and it's so, so impressive and you started your business when you were 21 and you have accomplished all this. I got to ask what is your secret to success and what drives you?

Shama Hyder: Good question. Look, I'd be lying if I said that there wasn't a good dose of luck involved, right? In the sense that the things that I happen to love, which happened to be marketing, like I genuinely love seeing and playing with technology and seeing where things are moving and how to connect the dots, that really overlaps well with what I get paid to do. So, when I say lucky, I mean that, right? It's just wonderful that the things that I enjoy also happen to be my profession and so I think getting to wake up every day and feeling grateful that I get to do these things and that makes me so happy.

What drives me is really interesting because I think it's shifted over the years, right? Because when I was 22, when I started the company, it was different. I think a lot of it was me driven. It's like call it ego, call it whatever. It was like, you want to prove yourself and I graduated during the Great Recession. It was a tough time. You couldn't get a job in the marketplace. There were just companies weren't hiring. It was a bad macro environment and because I loved social media and I'd studied it, like before it was a thing, right? This is pre-TikTok and pre-Instagram and pre-everything. I mean, I did my thesis on Twitter when I had 2000 users. So super early days, because I got out there and I thought, oh, I'm going to go get a job in the industry and quickly figured out that the industry didn't exist. Like people said, what is that thing? What is Tweeter? It's so early. I think I had a chip on my shoulder to prove that I hadn't wasted my degree and that I knew I was right. Again, luck, right? Luckily I was right and my intuition and insights were sort of spot on.

So, I think that was a driver when I started my company with the feeling like I needed to prove to these companies, who many of them, by the way, became clients over time, right? They didn't hire me for that. Jewel was kind of funny to me because I'm like, you could have had this so much cheaper. But I think as I've gotten older and now, I'm 16 years into my career, I have two young children and a family and a community I love here in Miami in South Florida. And I think about it differently. I mean, for me, now I feel like the thing that drives me is being a steward for my family and my community, my employees. And so I know, and my team gets so tired of me saying this, I'm sure, but I love saying this a rising tide raises all boats. And so we think that's what drives me is I'm always, I want that tide to keep rising. And I want to keep doing that so I can always be there for my people, so to speak, whatever they need, whatever that looks like. So, I think the idea that we put food on so many people's table is very meaningful for me. And so yeah, so it's interesting because I think that drive of, you know, what it originally started and where I am now in my career has really shifted.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, no, but that makes total sense as we all evolve and kind of our lives, I don't want to say dictate the things we focus on, but it just kind of naturally works that way because, again, kind of how you found joy when you were younger and how you find joy now just change and shift. And I think that's the beauty of age, honestly, I think that's the discovery fun part. So Zen Media, your company, has been recognized as one of the fastest growing companies. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you focus on B2B. So, which I think is kind of standout right there, because I think that had been a gap for so long. And B2B is probably one of the trailers in wanting to understand social media and finding the need for it. So, what has been some of the strategies that you've taken with that segment of audience of the B2B to grow your business?

Shama Hyder: Yeah, let's call a spade a spade, right? So B2B is backwards and slow in so many ways. And I say this with a lot of love, like I'm in the field, I work with these clients, you work with really smart people. But I think what's happened, and this will help illuminate why I think we've had our position and whatnot. Funny thing is we do work occasionally with B2C companies. We actually have quite a few on the roster, but it's so funny because when they come to us, they're like, oh, you work with B2B companies? I'm like, yes, but you're a ray of sunshine. It is a joy because B2B is hard, right? You have a qualified audience, you're trying to translate cybersecurity, SaaS platform, that big ticket items into something the Wall Street Journal wants to cover or whatever it is. You're trying to meet, it's so many times working with even deep technical folks, taking that, adding the storytelling element. And it's like the more technical you are, the more the need for simplicity in your narrative. And so B2B is challenging.

All that to say, very few people I think can do that well. There's a lot more folks in the B2C world. So yes, it's an interesting niche. I do love it. I think there's a lot of future there. I think that B2B is also on the cusp of some major changes because the way it's always approached marketing and sales is dramatically different than how people buy today. And so you see this, we have clients that come to us and say, look, we were set up for a different generation even, or the way people bought was different. And it's changing. We can talk about some of those changes if you want. But for us, part of that is keeping up with those changes and education. And so, like 90% of what we do is educate right? And B2B companies traditionally, and you've been at this for a long time too, Mary, so you know how this works, are sales driven organizations, right? Sales and then marketing kind of serves as the subservient department to sales. At best, it's like an on-demand collateral factory. It's like sales needs this. I mean, again, call us speed to speed. That's what marketing does in B2B.

But the shift that's occurred and why I think so many companies are still so behind and it hurts my soul when they see this is when you think about buyers and all of us as buyers, we are through the buying process. You say we, but like, let's say a prospect, whatever, multiple studies back this up, Forrester, Gartner, take your pick. Reputable companies research this and most buyers are 64% through the buying cycle before they talk to sales. So the sales led mentality worked really well for an era where information was scarce.

Mary Killelea: Gosh, that's such a good point.

Shama Hyder: You just don't have that much information. And so you have to talk to sales. It's like a necessary evil in a way, right? Like you're gonna have to engage. And look, I love sales. I mean, I speak on sales, I speak on marketing. So, but it used to be that way. Like if I want to understand what, you know, what do you offer, what's your SaaS platform? I need to sit down with someone. I need to understand. I need you to walk me through it. So, it starts at sales. Now what's happened is I can get all this information myself. I'm doing all my own homework. So, I'm exploring, I'm evaluating, dark social is a huge thing, which just means like we consume publicly, but we share privately. So, there's people listening to this podcast right now that Mary, you and I will never know, right? Because they'll never say like, great job, Mary, or that was a great podcast. Keep, you just won't do that. But they will share this link in their Slack channels. They will share it in their teams. And so that's the shift that's happening. So marketing more than ever needs to lead that, right? That needs to lead that game. That's the only way that B2B companies are going to stay competitive.

And so anyways, it's a massive shift. Our perspective is very different coming into this for companies that have historically, maybe not even had a digital presence or done very little or you again, let's say a glorified online brochure or whatever it may be. So this, and it's a different world. I mean, you think about LinkedIn and what a massive platform that is, right? And social media and earned and so forth. So anyways, I don't know if I'm getting so off track to your question, Mary, but basically that's the just…

Mary Killelea: I love it. When you gave me the green light, oh, we could talk about this a little deeper. You know, I'm going to, because I think it's so fascinating around because in my work, I think it's seen and fun to see that companies in the B2B space are now realizing that their target accounts have personas that are consumers. You know what I mean? It's like shifting and treating them as people versus just accounts. And I think what are your thoughts on how B2B talks to their audience and engages with their audience?

Shama Hyder: I have so many thoughts. I have so many thoughts on how B2B engages or doesn't engage. And so, gosh, let's start with what you just mentioned, right? Consumers and treating. So look, let's start with a difference. Let's put that out on the table. So we'll see, there is a difference between B2B and B2C sales. There absolutely is. And here's the difference though, because people think it's in the process. No, no, no. You're talking to a generation that's used to overnight delivery on Amazon and getting their information right away. Now you've got chat GPT, everything is quick and the Apple Store experience or whatever it is, it doesn't matter. Like, we're used to a certain buying process, frictionless, easy, that sort of thing. And that's big. And that's not like B2C or B2B. That's how I live my life.

When I keynote, it's funny, I ask the audience, I say, how many of you have literally sighed out loud when it says your Uber is like five minutes away rather than two? And everyone giggles and they know because it's true, right? Because you're like five minutes. So these expectations of us as human beings have changed. Whether you sell them a packet of chips or software, how we engage in the world is radically different. We expect companies, B2B, B2C don't care, keep up with how I move through life.

Now here's the difference that I think is key and important. So, when B2C, consumers try to avoid regret. So, I shouldn't have bought those pair of shoes, they look good, but that was a bad idea. It was like all been there. I bought this phone, but oh my goodness, if I just waited six months, a new one came out. And so you're trying to minimize regret. That's the motivator for B2C.

In B2B, the motivator, and now unless you were selling to entrepreneurs directly, maybe the buck stops with them, but really everyone else, even CEOs have shareholders and so forth. It's to avoid blame.

Mary Killelea: Interesting. Yeah.

SH: Right. And so you might say it's cover your ass. Can I say ass on this podcast? I'm sorry. I mean it literally. I thought per se, I just literally, but it is. It's cover your behind because you don't want your boss to say, why did you buy this? Why did you trust this? Why didn't, you know, whatever. And so trust, credibility, and funnily, the things that drive that PR influencers, all the social media, these are the same things that B2B kind of poopoos or feels like, ah, they're not hard science enough, but these are the exact things that make someone feel safe. And so safety becomes a key driver in B2B. And that's why you see mediocre companies.

I mean, let's face it, mediocre products, right? But are super well known. Why are they consistently selling better? Cause we, look, we see that we have, you know, we often work with like David Goliath type companies. So someone will come as they say, we're trying to disrupt this where our competitors products are nearly as good, but they're eating our breakfast and lunch. And the reason they're eating your breakfast and lunch is because they understand this, that it's not just your product or service. It's the perception that matters. And it's safety, right? Because your boss is going to call you in and be like, why, why did you buy from them? Be like, they're the top, they're the number one. You're like, oh, everyone. So in the olden days, it used to be, the old saying was nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. If you remember this Mary, but there's that adage is true for anything. And it was because like, what was your boss going to say? You brought in the best. And so you see this with McKinsey and being like consulting firms, anybody who's built a brand, right? That is the power of a brand. And in B2B that brand becomes more important than B2C, which is why I find myself often frustrated, but just as excited. I feel like at some point it has to tip and people will start realizing it.

The other thing that I thought was fascinating that you said, you know, about ABM or an account based marketing and whatnot. Now this is, this kind of blew my mind too. I didn't realize this, but you know, LinkedIn has massive data, right? Massive data of every, like every professional pretty much was a profile. So, what their data shows is that every three years, three years, 40% of folks change industries and jobs.

Mary Killelea: Three years?

Shama Hyder: Three years.

Mary Killelea: Wow. Three years. That's shocking.

Shama Hyder: So when people are like, if your sales cycle is like, let's say, you know, 12 months, whatever, and you're spending all this time. And so that's the other thing is B2B sometimes gets so focused on like our target audience, our target audience, much to the detriment of, but do we build a brand overall? Because the person that you are targeting now is not going to be according to research. That's me. That's according to research through, I mean, LinkedIn has more data than anybody on these professionals. And so, when they look at it and they'd say 40% of the people are switching industries, jobs. And so, your CISO today at a company could be, CEO at a completely different industry, right? CPG, whatever it may be. So that shift is dramatic.

Mary Killelea: That is so interesting. And we could go down this rabbit hole for a while, but I'm going to bring us back because I want to talk about your book, Momentum, How to Propel Your Marketing and Transform Your Brand in the Digital Age. You discuss the importance of embracing change and staying ahead of the trends. Can you share some insights on how individuals and businesses can effectively adapt and thrive in this ever evolving digital landscape?

Shama Hyder: Oh my goodness. That's a tall order, isn't it? What kind of trends? So, okay. So we think the biggest thing, and this is probably the easiest thing that any company can do, because we could get into all the nitty gritty and the tools and this and that, but the simplest thing you can do is start to talk to your customers. I'm amazed at why customer research is not your primary source. Like, why do people not start there? Because if you did that, then maybe you wouldn't spend so much money on trade shows, then you wouldn't spend so much money on whatever it is, like your annual huge report that you realize nobody actually reads.

So, I think the disconnect between how individuals buy and how B2B in their mind has the sense of how people, it's completely different. So, I think being able to listen to your customers and talk to them and not just how do you buy our product, but where do you spend your time? What's meaningful for you? What do you enjoy? And like you said, the dark social pattern is so fascinating, right? And so companies get so hung up on social and we don't, you hear like, we don't get comments. You sell medical devices. Why would you get like, in what world do you know? And so, but the goal is wrong, right? Like consumption is important, not consumption over time leads to conversion. So many times people want like, what they expect and what they act, completely different.

So, you ask people, do you consume content? Yeah, absolutely. I look, how many things do you comment on? So, if you're listening to this, I want you to ask yourself this, right? This is the question I'm posing. How much do you consume versus the ratio of things that you comment on publicly? And for most people listening on here, it's very little, maybe 10% of the stuff. What's much more likely, again, I, in my keynotes, I kind of ask this question in the audience. I say, how many of you watch reels or micro entertainment? Of course, almost everybody raises their hand. It doesn't matter your platform, like TikTok, Instagram, whatever you watch the reels. And then I say, how many of you then share that with the same three people in DMs over and over? And they're relaxed and read because it's true, right? So, this is, we consume publicly, but we share privately. So, if you look at your social strategy and say, it's a fail because people aren't engaging or leaving comments, and you pull the plug, that's not the goal. That's not how people engage.

Mary Killelea: That is so interesting. And I really think that what is you call it hidden social or what was the…?

Shama Hyder: Dark social.

Mary Killelea: I guess I haven't really thought about it. But when you say it, I'm like, check, check, check on everything that you just described, I do. And but the thing is, is how does a marketer, let's say, convince a business of this? So, stick with it, give it time. Here's because where's the data? Because many businesses are hung up on data, like show me the money, how, how my social is working.

Shama Hyder: Yeah, great, great question. So, one measure the macro, right? Like we know how much demand gen we move for clients, we know how, but you have to connect the dots for them. So yes, you need to measure macro. It's also fascinating to me, and like simple things, ask your customers when people come to you, how did you find us? Right. And don't make it a drop down, just open. And I can tell you in the last month alone, because I look at this data for our company at Zen Media, chat GPT, Shama's post on LinkedIn, chat GPT, I mean, think about that bard, right? A client you guys worked with three years ago, who I had drinks with last week, like, mind blown, and you just you can't get this kind of data without asking for this data. So, we think focus on the qualitative, not just the quantitative, to make your make your case.

And businesses aren't people aren't stupid, right? But I think so many times the focus is just on quantitative data, people forget you can use qualitative data, and you should, and you should, and there's no more powerful way than to say, I talked to our customers, right?

Mary Killelea: That's brilliant. I love it. Okay, so influential speaker and author, you shared your knowledge and insights with diverse audiences. How do you ensure your message resonates with different groups and cultures and be effective when you're giving speeches? And what kind of planning or thoughts go into that for you for prep?

Shama Hyder: Yeah, so I'll answer in two ways. I think broadly, businesses say how do we engage with all our audiences? I mean, your team should reflect the people you serve. Right? So like, that's, that's something that we really try to do. And, like, we have Gen Zers on our team, we have baby boomers on our teams, generational, we have working moms, we have working dads, we have the single person living in New York, we have the urban folks, we have folks in Midwest, middle of nowhere, we have people of color, we have veterans, like that diversity, people will obviously see things from their lens. Now, it's not always possible. So, I do think even working with agencies, we have clients who work with us, because they say, you look like the future of our audience than we do internally. And that's smart. It's just good business to be able to think that way. I always find it fascinating that only point 1% of agencies, by the way, are women owned, even though the majority of people who work in, like, and then I only there's no stats for minority owns. So, I'm like, is like, can I is that a unicorn? I don't know. Do you have to raise a billion dollars to be a unicorn? Or will that will that do? I think it's important to have that in your team reflected, right? Like the people that you want to serve need to be because people look at it differently.

I'll give you a funny story. We had a client in Asia. And funnily enough, we work with a lot of international companies that want the US market, because of our own digital footprints that people say, I heard of Zen Media or whatnot. And we had a client and they were working on some sort of content calendar, I remember, like, but it was like a year calendar. And they sent us their assets. And we were looking at it. And the team said the team had a discussion because they're like, okay, so look at these images. And every image was an all-white family, like using this product. So, for us, it was jarring because we're like, this is not what America looks like, right? We're looking at this or like, oh, this is like they're gonna get but for them being an, it's just, it's not they don't think about it that way. Like that. So that's why having those voices matters. Because we saw it, we caught it right away. We're like, we you can't put this out there. We let's let and of course, they were very open. But I mean, that's why they were working with us. It's a different market. So, I think having those voices in your own right ear.

I'm so appreciative to when I get a keynote request, and they say, Hey, listen, the last like 10 years, right? We've had all older white men, they kind of whispering, they're like, we'd really like, and that's great. Like, I appreciate that so much for creating space for those voices. And so I think that's there's something to be said about that. In terms of how I prep. I lean a lot on my team, too. Like recently, I did these videos, I shared it with a team, and I'm a millennial. And one of our Gen Z team members, she was like, Oh, you're doing the millennial pause. I was like, what? I've never felt old until it's like, what is the millennial pause? And she's like, when you do the video, when you pause for a second before you start. And it was fascinating to me, because I never thought about that, right? Good feedback. Of course, she was also like, okay, you can't side part your hair because you'll get called out. And I was like, I've all this is not a trend thing. I've always side parted my hair. Anyways, so it's just fascinating. So that's the only that's the only answer I have for that, which is, you're going to be as good as the folks that you surround yourself with. And different perspectives are helpful. I mean, just again, it's good business.

Mary Killelea: I gotta say, I love from that, that your employee felt so secure and safe in the culture that you provide, that she could tell you her honest feedback. Like, I think that's so wonderful, because I don't think that happens in regular corporate America.

Shama Hyder: So, thank you so much for saying that, that Mary, I didn't think until you said that, I didn't think about that at all. Yeah, I will say it's most of my employees have never worked for a female owned company. So, it's a new thing for them. And sometimes the things they share with me are shocking and a little unbelievable. Because again, I've never had a corporate job. So I, I haven't experienced some of these things that they're like, this is so common, or, again, that for me, that is a perspective shift. Because this is an interesting thing, just because I'm a woman, I'm a woman of color, my experiences are completely different, you'll say, Oh, you have you experienced a lot of discrimination or whatnot, I can honestly say, No, right, I have not. But if I use that to say none of you know, we have employees who go on maternity leave and have children, and they're like, this culture is so different, because at a past job, one of them shared with me, there was this pressure to come back looking the way you did, or the boss would make comments and say, like, well, get back at it, or whatever it is. But again, doesn't cross my mind, because I'm a mom, and I like, it's just a different, you're right, it is a different culture. But it just goes to say, like, even just because you share a gender or color, or a sense of identity, it doesn't mean that you have the same experiences.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, I love this conversation, because just in your answers, I can see diversity matters so much to you, diversity, equity and inclusion, and how that's brought to life through your company, which is awesome. I think I read this, and I'm just bringing this out to confirm, but do you is do you allow remote work?

Shama Hyder: We do. So we're completely remote. I think that's amazing. We've been remote for 16 years. Like before COVID, right, like we started remote, we started remote. And the good thing is, it allows us to attract talent. I mean, honestly, my people could be working for Facebook and Google, we have really freaking smart, talented people, every day I am in awe of the work that these guys do. I'm honored, I really am honored. It's not just lip service that they call that media home, because they know they have options. I think that remote is a very attractive thing. Does it have its challenges? Yeah, I think it is harder to form culture and to bond because you can't just go get grab a drink after, but it depends on life, where you are in life and the type of person you are. Some people enjoy keeping work completely separate and enjoy that boundary. And others say like, I kids, I don't really want to be, I don't want to feel the pressure of happy hour. I want to be able to leave and go with my family. So yeah and I think because of that, we are very, we have a lot of women, a lot of working moms, a lot of working parents.

I remember when the company first started, remember 16 years ago, it's a different culture. People would say, where's your office? And I would say it's remote, we're in the cloud. They would say, is that uptown? And I would say, yeah, way up, way, way uptown. And now, of course, it's acceptable. But you know, this was like, clients are like, but where do we, how do we meet? And like, we come, we're happy to come to you. We work with clients all over the world. It's like, not a problem, right? We're happy to meet with you. And we do, we meet with our clients all over. We have clients in Colorado and California, and you're like, we travel, we meet with them. But it does allow us to attract good talent. And for the culture that we have, I love it. But I will say, I mean, there are challenges. I think this hybrid thing is perhaps a bad idea.

Mary Killelea: It's like putting the genie back in the bottle, if you ask me.

Shama Hyder: So I think what most people are trying to do with hybrid is get back to in office. And it's a soft-footed approach.

Mary Killelea: 100%.

Shama Hyder: Then dragging people back. But you know what? I'm all for it. Because listen, at the end of the day, I'm competitive. And I'm like, that's just more talent for us to scoop up. And we don't care where you live. So I'm not going to fight this too much, right? I'm like, by all means, ask your people to get back in because then that will free up more talent where that's not necessary. So yeah, it's funny because the majority of our employees, I've never met in person.

Mary Killelea: I love that you make it work. And I love that you've been doing this before it was a thing.

Shama Hyder: So I mean, honestly - I feel like that's the history. I think that's like the punch line, right? My timeline is doing things before they were cool or accepted.

Mary Killelea: Seeing opportunity and making it work. Okay. So, let's talk about your brand because obviously, you're out there marketing your company, but you're also marketing yourself. So what tips do you have for women in business who are trying to grow their careers? And if you think about it, transitioning every three years to go up the ladder, which I think you almost sometimes have to do to leave to go get more money, et cetera. What tips do you have for women in their careers branding themselves?

Shama Hyder: Oh my goodness. I just did an article on this on LinkedIn and I talked about strategies to grow your career. So if you guys are interested, check it out. If you go to my profile, you can look at the articles, different than posts. It's an article, but you can see it. And it's, I just wrote this out. So, it's such a timely question. Look, I think the biggest mistake women make is not tooting their own horn and feel like a lot of us are raised with pride has a fall and you don't want to show off. And I, you know, sure. But it is, it requires a shift in your mindset. And so the way I think about it is I want to open every door there is because that lets me hold that door open for the next woman to walk through.

Mary Killelea: I like that.

Shama Hyder: That should be because for me, personal branding is not an ego thing. It's the exact opposite. It's a community thing. The more you have a platform, the more you can help others. It's not unlike money, which also makes a lot of them nervous. It's like, no, the good guys should have it all because otherwise the bad guys get it and they do that with it. Right. So I think with personal brand, you have a responsibility for creating a brand, not just for yourself, but because of the opportunities it allows you to give other people. Right. So, break down every door you hold it, hold that door open for the next person. And that's the power of building your brand.

What does this look like? It means engaging on LinkedIn. It means when you have PR opportunities, don't shy away, right? Be that spokesperson. Doesn't mean you have to be on camera all the time. Doesn't mean you have to become an extrovert if that's not your thing, but it does mean showing your work. So I feel like every job is three parts. If you think about it this way, it's the job, doing the job well, which I would argue that anybody listening to this, clearly you're freaking listening to a podcast and B2B, you're doing your job well. Okay. Like let's just say that I'm pretty, my money's on you. You do a good job.

Your next aspect is what's the story of that job that you tell? What is that narrative? And women miss out on this. They downplay it. They are like, it's no big deal. You hear a guy talk about, let's say they spent two years in China. It's like, oh, I ran the China office. Of course I'm fluent in Mandarin, knows nothing. Right. And then the woman who's been like grew up perhaps in China and is just like, yeah, I led a small team there. The narrative is just shockingly different. And so, own your narrative and then use that success for your next project, your next job. And it doesn't mean even external. This is also for internal growth. I was speaking to a while back, I did a keynote for women at Ericsson, right? And a lot of engineers, a lot of very smart technical women, it's like, you need to finish this, so you get your next project and then next project and you get your pick. Cause just if you don't own your story, you're not doing yourself any favors, especially if you work in a big corporate company, right? Like you have to brand yourself and you have to take every opportunity. I laid it out in that article. So if you guys are really interested in this by all means, but I think it's a mindset shift. As long as you think about it as showing off, of course you're not going to do it.

Most women are uncomfortable with this. Most individuals, I would say most individuals with healthy self-esteem are not really about like the show off thing. It won't feel good, right? It's an insult. If I say, oh, you're such a show off. No one ever said that as a nice, it's not a compliment. So as long as you see, see personal branding that way, you're not going to want to do it. But if you start to see personal branding as the ultimate moat for your career platform builder, to help your community, to help others like you, unlike you, right? To be able to use your privilege as leverage.

Mary Killelea: Yeah. I love it. It resonates. And I will make sure to include the link to that article in the show notes so people can easily find it. I would be remiss if I don't, I have so many more questions I want to make sure I get to, but generative AI. Okay. So, chat GPT exploded. Now the everyday Joe guy, gal understand what AI is, or at least understands that, Hey, it's not just for scientific discovery. I can use it to help write a cover letter. I can help to grow my small business and have it as like an assistant. So, what money making ideas do you think chat GPT could do for career minded women who want to maybe look at a career shift? And I know that's like a $20 million question, but.

Shama Hyder: I love the question, Mary. First of all, for all the spammers out there, how many spammers you think listen to this? I, I hope at least a couple use it. I mean, at the amount of greetings that I still get like in the email greetings. And I'm like, no, no, no, you have no excuse. You can use chat GPT. You don't have to send me bad emails anymore. Right? So, listen, if we can work for the spammers, I can work for you.

I think generative AI, obviously like every iteration of technology tool, I think opens up immense, immense opportunities. You know, people say prompt engineering, learning, but part of it, I think is, look, there's, there's two things in the, in the business world that are valued money and time, perhaps could be argued in our personal lives too, like for professional standpoint, right? Just obviously a lot more things than important that, but time and money, those are your two levers. If you want to make more money in your career switch or whatever, figure out the lever of time. And if generative AI can help you be more productive, more efficient, more so, and I'll give you a couple of personal examples, right? So personally, I used to go to the design team when I needed an image for a post. Now I just go to mid journey directly, because I just saved them time. And unless I really need something custom, I just, I create the image on my own and it's a few minutes and it's done. It's great.

So, time saving for a client, which is, I'm so excited about this. We have a client who wanted to do a podcast for a long time. He doesn't have time. Maybe busy, 200 person company, but really wanted to do it. And, funnily is very, cares a lot about the blog. Most CEOs don't, like he really cares about their perspective and, and it actually sits down with our team to go through posts and have his voice added, which I think is amazing. So really smart guy, someone I have a lot of respect for, but we've been working together for almost three years now with the company. So recently with AI, you know, you can turn text into voice using this tool called 11 labs. We've been able to take some of this blog posts, add like a 60 second snippet of his voice, right? And now it's a podcast, like it's audio. It's just kind of amazing. And he loved him in such an awesome. And it's a time saver, right?

So, I think that's really where part of it is you've got to start playing with it. I think so many people want either the final answer or what do I do? Or there again, I think I feel like a lot of philosophies that are, that people think are anti I'm for like throwing spaghetti at the wall. I think that's a great, why would you not want to do more of that? Right. It takes, they don't want to do it all the time. Of course, there are time and place, but yeah, some amount of throwing spaghetti, the wall, like I spend nights just playing with things like plugins. And I discover things discovery happens through play through imagination. So, I don't care what your career shift that you want to do play with these tools, right? Immerse yourself. Who are you going to look stupid to? What are you scared of? And I think so many times it is that it's, is that millennial pause.

Mary Killelea: Well, and that's what I love about to be bolder, to be honest, is I, I am playing with new tools and I think it makes me a better marketer for my day job, but yet against that freedom to go explore and feel like I'm at the cutting edge and doing some innovation. And I don't have someone telling me like, I need to check with five other people, whether I can do it or not, and I love that.

Shama Hyder: I love that, Mary. And yeah, just think about, again, your podcast, I'm sure you come across so many people and, just being, I think this idea that we're continuously learning is, is really key, right? And I think about my children as a mom, if I think about like, what things do I want to instill in them? I always come back to the same answer, always think compassion, because they feel like if they have that, then everything derives from that. They have compassion for themselves, for others into a true love of learning. They don't care if they know there are ABCs and read, like that, that happens. But if they love to learn, and I think that's the part you really have to embrace is do you love to learn? Do you love to grow? Because so many people don't. And I don't think it's because they don't want to, I think a lot of it is just fear.

Mary Killelea: Well, and I think now more than ever, the jobs that will be in the future aren't created yet. So, there is going to be absolute required need to learn.

Shama Hyder: Yes, I mean, even with, again, I think about my kids, and I think, you know, forget calculators, like, you know, what skill sets will they need? And in part of it, what I think is interesting, by the way, just as a side, what I like about generated AI, and chat GPT, and I don't see any, any others, I haven't seen many other people use it this way, is I like to use it as a thought partner. So, it's not just give me answers, but I ask like, what should I be? Give me questions, like, play devil's advocate act as devil's advocate, push back on this. And so, it's really cool to have that friction. And rather than like, here's the answer. Right, being able to get be challenged in that way. And I think that's another cool way to use it as well.

Mary Killelea: No, I absolutely agree. One thing that we usually do on this podcast is we have our subject matter experts are our guests talk about their career. And I dove right into your business and how you started it. But what kind of led you up to that? You know, was there an interest in school? Was it I mean, like, can you talk a little bit about the journey and how it went from a small idea to a very large successful company?

Shama Hyder: Yeah. So look, I moved to the United States when I was nine years old, and I was an immigrant, first generation. And it was challenging, it's a different culture, school in Texas, very different. And, you know, looking back, I think it's funny, because I remember when the teachers wrote in my report card to my parents the other kids are mean to Shama, but she doesn't care. She just seems to find her own thing. And I think that's kind of been my defining trait, right? This idea that you don't care whether you want to play with me or not, I just found what I did. And I had kind of that independent just go find something else that I wanted to do. And so it started very early for me. I think also as an immigrant, I have a very deep sense of appreciation for what I feel like this country has done for me and what I feel like I owe the community because of the opportunities I was given, right? Like people held open that door for me so many times. So now again, I feel like it's my job to take that to the next level, hold more doors open, right? Elevate that rising tide raises all boats thing.

And then I guess school, I always had a passion for looking back, communication. I measured in it. I love it. Technology. I like technology. I like playing with it. I'm not always the best at every platform. I don't develop code or anything like that, but I'm fascinated. I like learning things, and I always had a passion for learning. I think all those things combined in social media was just taking off when I was in grad school. So for me, I've never held a job, right? And I think that's the downside of my kind of career. Entrepreneur is all I know. All I know is how to run a business. And I had to learn.

Mary, I'll tell you like a funny story at a client once, they were on the phone and they said, you know, what are your net terms? I had never heard the phrase net terms. I was like, I don't know what that is. And I put my phone down and employee and I was like, what are net terms? And she was like, it means when do you want to get paid? And I was like, okay, net now. So, it shows you that any business expertise is good at what I do, which is marketing, but I'm going to run a business. And the client was really sweet. I remember because like he understood that, okay, clearly this is, but he was very gracious and he's like, would a net seven works? It will pay you in seven. And I was like, yes, okay. Okay. That will work. Now, what do you want to get paid now? So, anyway, so I think because I come at it from such a different place, sometimes corporate America is still very surprising and shocking to me, like how slow things can move again, because it's the antithesis of everything we are in Zen, which is a very high velocity, quick, rapid. I mean, we live in this world of tech and media and news and everything changes so fast.

So yeah, so I don't know, I don't have much of a career trajectory, like it's school and then business, you know, unlike folks who have to go to, no one even told me, I think I learned this like two years ago that most people start agencies after working at one and they bring their client list. Like, I didn't know that. I just never got the memo.

Mary Killelea: Like, I can do it. Like, where does that come from? upbringing your parents?

Shama Hyder: A combination of things, I'm sure one, just my personality probably broken, right? In that way. Like, because it just, yeah, I think personality for sure. I just have always again, marched to the beat of my own drummer. Yeah. And this way doesn't work. I'll try something else. I've always had kind of a spirit of being an adventurer. And then, like seeing my parents, they came to this country, they worked very hard. They were grateful for the opportunities they were given. They built like, my family is the American dream, we are the American dream. And now, so yeah, I feel like it is a combination probably of growing up in that scene that and then just personality.

And funnily enough, before we recorded, I was telling you, my husband grew up in Tualatin, Oregon, just a little bit outside where you are. And you know, he was raised by a single mom, three kids. And so, he was like a punk rocker from Oregon, who came to Miami built his business, so we're both entrepreneurs. And so now, like our family ethos, right, is very different. We both have a lot of respect for building things from scratch and kind of that. So yeah, so I would say, again, not just seeing like how that emerged, but that continues to grow and build in me and now in our family. I mean, I feel bad for our kids. Like, they hear the term ROI more than they hear me. Like, I kid you not, the things that they know.

And it's like, my son the other day told my mom, my mom, we were cracking up. And she told me, she said Archie said he wanted to have an urgent meeting with me. And I said, how many urgent meetings, first of all, am I in? Which made me realize, I was like, I know meetings, but this urgent meeting. And then she asked him, she said, oh, what are we going to do with this meeting? And I, because I said, I said, honey, you have to have an agenda for a meeting. You can't have a meeting without an agenda. And he goes, we're going to eat steak and chocolate cake. And I was like, I want to be in his meetings all day long. But anyways, yeah, so I think it's personality and then environment, of course.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, I love that. Share some tips on maintaining a healthy work life balance. Because you're a working mom, not on top of everything else.

Shama Hyder: Yeah. So first of all, I think the work life balance is a lie. Anybody who says they have balance, they're lying. They really, I mean, I think you can have work life harmony. I think you can have work life blend, especially in the work remote work that we do. Right? Like, it's not like I come home at five, I take my shoes off at the door. And it just doesn't how I don't know how that would be possible for at least the career I've chosen and being in professional services and in media and so forth.

So, the way I look at it is look, some days, I'm a really great mom, like, you know, I nailed it. And then other days, I'm a really good CEO. Like, I'm very proud of the work I did. It's pretty rare that those days are the same, the one in the same. And I accept that, you know, when my kids are sick, guess what, that's mommy day. That's the role I'm going to play. And that's what's going to have to happen. And when you know, when I have a kid and again, it helps have a very, I know I'm speaking from a really a point of privilege, because I have a spouse that's very supportive of my career. And not everybody has that, right. And so, I think that also makes it a lot easier. I don't know how I would do it if I didn't have that help. Yeah. So I think for anyone to sit here and talk about like, Oh, I great work life balance. I mean, boy, I just think it would be so remiss to say, I don't I don't think that I could do it if I didn't have a lot of help if I didn't have a lot of the structure that I do.

Because even with all of that, I'm being very candid in saying some days, I'm a great mom, and other days, I'm a great boss. And some days, those overlap, but not often, right. And you just, you have to take your winnings. Like, it just depends, you know, when you're going to be traveling, that's work. I also think having kids, it's a sharper contrast for me now, because if I'm not with my kids, then whatever I'm doing better be really worth it. Yeah. Right. Because I'm, I'm not with them. And so it does, there's a heightened sense of productivity. There's a heightened sense of like, I don't want to just do coffee.

Mary Killelea: You don't want to be busy, just to be busy.

Shama Hyder: Yeah, yeah, I want to make sure that everything I'm doing has a very clear purpose. I think it just makes you a lot more purposeful. But yeah, I think it's very hard. And I just, I don't like it when people act like it's not, or they say, or they act like, of course, it's like, yeah, it takes a village. I'm doing this podcast right now. I don't, hopefully, we didn't hear that. But earlier, my, my four year old son was banging on the door. He's like, Mommy, are you in there? It's me, your baby bear. And then quiet. And so, what I assume happened is either my mom who was watching him or his father found him and carried him off. But you can't, you can't do that if you don't have that support. And so, I do genuinely feel for folks who don't. I think you can you have it all? Yes. Can you have it all at the same time? No.

Mary Killelea: I have one more question. And then I'll let you go be with your family and start this beautiful holiday weekend. What does to be bolder mean to you?

Shama Hyder: To be bolder actually means to me to keep up with the world, because we live in a bold world, we live in a bold time. And it does not pay to be meek. It does not pay for your personal career. It does not pay. And again, don't get me wrong, you can be you can be an introvert, you can have your strengths, but to not tell your story to not own it, to not have confidence, and be open to experimenting and trying things and accepting that you're going to fail. I think we were raised in historically, it's always like you do these things, and then these are the right things. And these are the wrong things. I think that line is blurring so much now, right. And so kind of finding that for yourself. But anyway, so you asked me what it meant for me. But that's what it means for me. It's, it's under it's keeping up. That's what it means.

Mary Killelea: That is amazing. You're amazing. Thank you so very much. I've enjoyed the conversation. And it's just been a pleasure.

Shama Hyder: Thank you, Mary. This was a lot of fun.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guests. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at to be bolder.com. That's the number two little b bolder.com.