Career Growth Lessons from Ellen Taaffe on Leadership, Branding, and the Mirrored Door | Career Advice for Women in Business and Tech

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 93
Featuring Ellen Taaffe

Episode Title: #93 Ellen Taaffe's Masterclass: Leadership, Branding, and Career Growth

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Ellen Taaffe



Mary Killelea: Hi there, my name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the 2B Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and Tech. 2B Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you, encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Welcome to the 2B Bolder podcast, where we dive into the stories and insights of influential and inspiring individuals. Today we have a special guest who has not only shattered glass ceilings but is also introducing us to a new concept called the Mirrored Door. Ellen Taaffe is a clinical associate professor at the Kellogg School of Management, a TEDx speaker and a brand specialist with 25 years of experience at Fortune 500 companies. She's held top brand man management posts at divisions of PepsiCo, Royal Caribbean and Whirlpool Corporation. In addition to her teaching position Ellen runs a leadership advisory consulting, speaking and coaching business and serves as an independent board director for two public and one private company boards. She is a certified board director and board leadership fellow with the National Association of corporate directors, and with her upcoming book The Mirrored Door she aims to bring awareness to a distorted self-perception that many women face in their careers. Ellen received her MBA from the Kellogg School of Management and holds a BS from the University of Florida Warrington College of Business. Professor, thank you for being here. Welcome to the show.

Ellen Taaffe: Oh thank you, Mary. I'm so excited to be here and please call me Ellen.

Mary Killelea: Wonderful, okay. Ellen, let's start by having you tell us about your journey from being you know starting out going to a top executive at a Fortune 500 companies, multiple companies, and then now today to being a clinical associate professor at the Kellogg School of Management.

Ellen Taaffe: Sure. Well, it started a long time ago when I majored in marketing, and when I got to looking for a job, I realized some of the brand management kinds of roles that I wanted, you needed an MBA for. So I took a job in sales, which is sort of like marketing, and I did that for much of my 20s and ended up at the headquarters of Quaker Oats, where I was in sales, where I became a liaison to the brand group, to all those marketing roles that I wanted to do. And quickly felt like, wow, that’s really what I want to do, even though I had probably spent seven years in sales. I got a lot closer to some of the other people in brand management. They would know I shared my interest in this field, and I was able to internally make that switch, go into brand management, and move up the ladder doing all the different kinds of roles within brand management, whether that’s running a business or promotions, new product development, strategy, that kind of thing. I did get my MBA during that time and moved up and was at Quaker. We got acquired by PepsiCo for 21 years, so I was there for a long time, but in two different functional careers in the divisions. And then when PepsiCo bought us, it was a very different culture, so it felt different, even though 21 years seems like a long time. And then I really wanted to do something different. I felt like I had done everything I wanted to do at PepsiCo and wanted to shake things up, and I really did by moving my family, and we went to where I grew up, South Florida, where I joined Royal Caribbean. And it was an incredibly expansive career experience, in the sense of going from like, the next new product is a granola bar of next year, to what are the six restaurants we’re going to have on a ship, and how would you design the stateroom, and what, where do people want to go in the world. So, like, the role of marketing was changed dramatically, as well as e-commerce and all these other elements.

So it was really expansive, but we missed the Midwest, where I live now, Chicago. And that’s when I took a job with Whirlpool in Southwest Michigan and was there for a couple years. Definitely a very different industry. So, you know, you pivot into different industries, and like how the business works, how you might market appliances when people don’t even know the brands sometimes that are in their home. A whole different experience again. You know, kind of an expansive time. And my job ended up getting eliminated at, you know, it’s at the 25-year mark, my job got eliminated, and it should have been, because it was, it was in a terrible economic time where we really need to be spending marketing, and we were cut, you know, as was cutting businesses or cutting marketing spend. But it gave me time for the first time to think, what do I want to do now? I’ve had this wonderful career. I got an executive coach and really thought through, how do I want to work, and what’s next? And I decided I don’t want to do some of the stuff that I used to call stupid stuff, where OB was just aligning other people in the organization, creating too many PowerPoint decks, all that kind of stuff. But I wanted to, I love, always love consumer insights, working with other people. And I ended up joining a company. I was their client, and I, there were two women that ran it, and they, it was a boutique consulting firm on brand and product strategy. The two owners wanted to retire and eventually sell the company, which they did, both those things. So I was there for five years running that organization, and it was, you know, my move from big corporate to small business, where we had dogs in the office and exposed brick and all these things that I always think I wanted, you know, when I was in the corporate world, and really loved doing that. And once the business was sold, I ended up thinking, and when I joined that company, I joined my first board. And I then wanted to maybe retire early, but I wanted to help people, and I became an executive coach myself after having that experience. I had multiple coaches throughout my career, and I always thought maybe I want to do that. So I joined another board. I’m doing the board and coaching thing, and I realized I’m kind of missing being part of something bigger than myself. I always had that and identified with being a part of a team, not really being solo. And the Kellogg CMO job came open. A recruiter called me, and the day I was there on the interview, I met with someone who I used to know, and she said, I was talking about I’m on boards, and I started out being the only woman on these boards, and I’m trying, I’m on panels to try to get more women to consider this career path and get them, get boards diversified. And she told me about a women’s leadership position in Kellogg, and I said, I know I’m here for this big, lofty CMO job, but can I get that job description? And I ended up loving what I saw. It was a more junior position, but it was, like, my passions had moved more towards that. And I said, like, forget the CMO job. I want to interview for this? And I ended up getting the job, and it opened up a whole new world. I, you know, was added to the clinical faculty, which is PR practitioners, and I eventually got to teach this class called personal leadership. And I joined another board. And now I’m sort of doing that portfolio career of teaching. It helped me to write, speak, and do board work, and a little bit of coaching on the side. I coach my students as part of the class, and I run the women’s leadership seminar series.

Mary Killelea: What a beautiful story of a journey, where you took a lot of pivots but you grew along the way. That's really a beautiful story. I have a couple questions related to those answers to how invaluable it was coming from sales into marketing, because there's always such a disconnect between marketing and sales, like sales doesn't have value. So, how did you leverage that to become a strength?

Ellen Taaffe: It was a huge asset for me, because I sort of grew up in sales. So I understood how, you know, what would happen when sales would come to the marketing planning meeting. So I became really good at being able to do that, because I really understood. I mean, I do believe you have to know your consumer and you have to know your customer, and the closest thing to that is the sales force. So I knew them. I had a lot of relationships where I could also reach out to them and say, we’re thinking about doing this. I could get input so that I’m really incorporating their feedback and really, like, how it really works, you know, in our case with retailers. And so that really helped me. And then I also think it was, it was at a time where retailers’ power was growing much more important in the world of consumer packaged goods. So even people in brand management were starting to do more sales exchanges, you know, going out to the field. And so the importance of understanding retailers and sales was growing too. But it helped me both in my brand management career and in my ability to align sales. A huge asset for me. I didn’t know at the time, I think.

Mary Killelea: I can definitely see it because I hear it you know sales always feels like they're left out of the decision making or the shaping of something and then therefore they don't support it because it was an idea and executed without their input and so yeah it really is critical. Another thing is, how critical is having an MBA today if you want to go up the leadership track?

Ellen Taaffe: I think it depends on the company or industry. There are some industries where that is critical. And then I would also say undergrad business programs have gotten so strong that the gap between an MBA and an undergrad business is much narrower than what it once was. But I think that it kind of depends on, you know, what you see. I was able to move into brand management without having the MBA. I did end up getting it, I think more for my own self-confidence, or my own, like, I can do this too, because it was hard being around all these people from amazing schools too. So, you know, I loved the experience. It helped me to understand more about the enterprise. Now, I went and got my MBA in my mid-30s. So, you know, a lot of people go in their late 20s, mid to late 20s as well.

Mary Killelea: So what is it about marketing that drew you in I mean across all those different companies because each one has its own like you said you know either audience or products that they're selling what is it about marketing?

Ellen Taaffe: Marketing in general the function you mean?

Mary Killelea: Yeah.

Ellen Taaffe: I think I love understanding human behavior, in a way. I’m very much consumer driven. I was that kind of marketer. I think that kind of fits with me personally. I was once told by a boss, a mentor, that I was the most empathetic marketer he had seen. And I thought, is that a compliment? Like, I think it is, but I’m not really sure. But I think that, you know, that’s who I am. I’m very sort of observant. And so I just love the idea that you could impact someone’s life or purchase, or, you know, and the stakes are really different. But they’re also important. If, you know, like, I can remember this is before I was a mom, but I can remember being in focus groups where moms talked about Rerun and paston and how their kids would eat it, and I had this whole new level of understanding of why this was a product that fit into their lives, even though I was not a user before. I know you came into that role. I hadn’t really had it probably in years or something like that. So that understanding of, like, your target audience and what that, you know, what they face. And I love the business side of it too. You know, in brand management you could really own a business pretty much at earlier ages too, without doing the whole entrepreneurial thing, which I also love and respect. But that was a great experience. So I like setting the strategy for running the business, but I loved the consumer communications and product development based on what you learn about them.

Mary Killelea: The concept of the Mirrored Door is quite intriguing. Explain to us, what it means and how you came up with the term?

Ellen Taaffe: Sure, so the book is called The Mirrored Door: Break Through the Hidden Barrier That Locks Successful Women in Place. And it’s my metaphor to describe this dynamic that I was seeing in my students, in my coaching clients, in the research, and sadly in myself too. And it’s this moment that many women encounter where they face opportunity and hold back in some way. They hesitate, thinking that, or we hesitate thinking that we’re not worthy or ready enough, and fall back on some existing patterns that have worked in the past instead of taking action. I call it the Mirrored Door because it’s about reflecting inward, I think in a distorted view of not recognizing that we’re more ready than we realize. And now, it’s not to say that we shouldn’t prepare and get ready, but sometimes we’re over relying on that. The way it hit me, or where it came from, was a moment when I'm new at this job at Kellogg. I was at the very first orientation, you know, being on the faculty, and I see the keynote is this very cool woman who was a CEO sharing her experience. And when she opened it up for questions at the end, all these hands set up, and they were all from the guys in the class, not from women. And, you know, the new person that I was sitting next to, who, you know, is somebody who books the speakers and that kind of thing, I asked her, is that how it is here? And she said, sometimes in the classroom too. And the thing that I then, like, kind of dove into was, you know, these students, to get into this school, I couldn’t get into this school now. And, you know, these students are really smart. They have already accomplished a lot. I met them, and they’re amazing, amazing in conversation, but not in that auditorium that day. And it took me back to my own MBA orientation, a lot fewer women in the room 25 years earlier. I thought it would be different. And so it sort of started me on this journey of, oh, maybe it’s, I thought it would be different generationally. That’s where I realized also, after hearing a lot of stories of what many women still face today, I heard some stuff from last week that maybe it’s more gender than generational. As I talked across other business schools and looked at the research, I saw it popping up again and again, no matter how accomplished and high achieving. This, oh, I just don’t know, or like it’s a discounting and distortion of ourselves and not giving ourselves credit. You know, and I could go on into all the different areas of sort of research and stories and all that. But I’ll let you.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, no. I think I was just so entrenched in what you were saying and I'm close to it and you're close to it. Because it's an area that we study and that's what we're passionate about. But I think if you step back and remove yourself and observe, it is a little shocking and disappointing, I guess? That this still does happen and it's interesting that you say it's a gender versus generation. Because I would have thought it was more generational. Like we were making more progress, but that's okay we're here to work on it.

Ellen Taaffe: Well, I would still say there's progress and what gives me a lot of hope is the younger generations. Both regardless of gender it gives me a lot of hope so it's just more of I thought it was completely eliminated in me or just in my generation just to clarify.

Mary Killelea: Let's talk about the glass ceiling. You described the Mirrored Door, how throughout your career have you seen the glass ceiling come into play with limiting career growth and how might you recommend people get around that or break through that?

Ellen Taaffe: Yeah. Well, I think that we can’t get anywhere close to the glass ceiling unless we open the Mirrored Door. You know, the glass ceiling is really that highest level of organizations. And it’s shattering that. Now, how I think it does impact us is, if there’s no women at senior levels or no women of color, we don’t. I think it’s, if you see it, you can be it. And when you don’t see it, you think, is this for me? Whether that’s functional leadership or company leadership. So there is a glass ceiling when, like, at multiple levels, if you know, if you’re not, if women aren’t breaking through that. So I think that does impact people of all ages, that, you know, it makes us wonder, can we succeed here, or is this the right fit here? So that, I think, is very true. I think the idea of, you know, I also mentioned the broken rung, which Lean In McKenzie has mentioned in their report, of this idea of not getting the first manager-level position and men getting a lot more of them. And that’s a really critical role. I think that’s another one of those metaphors that is really true and powerful, and we need to get more women to get those people management roles that are so important. But the Mirrored Door, I think it’s from so many different ages. So it’s from declaring a major in college, to what jobs or what industries you might go into. Or it could be, you know, in this case, it was like raising your hand in an auditorium, or that going for another promotion. But it comes up for me just even in more recent years in the boardroom, when I go into a new industry that I didn’t work in before. But they have me there because I have board experience and I have, you know, brand experience and strategy and financial experience, but I don’t have this industry. That’s what I focus on. And then I’m, like, too quiet in the first few meetings because I think I don’t, I don’t, you know, I can’t speak to this industry. I can’t speak to healthcare. I haven’t worked in it. But the reality is they knew that when they hired me, when they picked me and elected me for this. And I need to not let that block me, but it was. And so it can, this Mirrored Door pops up when we take on new things. Like getting a degree, getting an advanced degree, or speaking in front of other people, or anything that puts us where we could feel a bit more judged or we’re stretching ourselves. It’s like, you know, I hear so often about impostor syndrome. It’s just a sign that we’re stretching and we’re in something that we’re not used to, and we’re uncomfortable. And so it’s common, and it’s sort of now part of the vernacular, I think, a little bit too much, when it’s really a sign that we’re stretching into something new. And we can choose and act like we believe we can do this.

Mary Killelea: I will say that you know when I start to feel uncomfortable, I lean in. Because it's like, okay there's something good happening here. I know I kind of do that mind over matter thing.

Ellen Taaffe: Yeah.

Mary Killelea: It makes all the difference from you know wanting to run out the door to okay maybe if I just power through this I'll get to the other side faster.

Ellen Taaffe: I think that’s so important. It’s why I love it. I was glad to get invited to be on your podcast, because you’re pushing me to be bold. I love that you lean in and take action, because I do feel like it’s certain, we can start to shift our mindset, but we really get there when we take some action and take even the smallest of steps. We get more comfortable with it.

Mary Killelea: In your book you mentioned five strategies that help women succeed but can also sideline them. Can you elaborate on the strategies?

Ellen Taaffe: Sure, so the first one is preparing to perfection. The second one is eagerly pleasing. The next one is spitting the mold. The third one is working pedals to the metal, driving forward. And the last one is performing patiently. I wish your audience could see the big smile on your face. I think all of them are at different stages, or a few at the same stage. And so I find those, as they drive success, all those things help us to be successful. They can also, we can come to a point where they sideline us. And so I refer to them as, you know, they can be perilous. And, you know, the way that happens is, like the first one, preparing to perfection, is about getting stuff done really well. And so we get counted on by that perfection, that being on time, on budget, excellent delivery, and, you know, kind of a no-risk. We’re depended on, and it becomes part of our identity. What’s not always seen to everyone else is loads of preparation that we do, so much to prepare. And what happens is, as we rise in organizations, or expectations rise around us, we have to move faster. We have to decide without all that preparation. And sometimes we hold back, or we have to learn how to delegate, and that means sometimes it won’t be as perfect as if we could do it too. And pretty soon we can face the stress of, I’ve got to move forward with less than what I used to do, and don’t realize we know how to do this and can probably decide with all that we know, without all the hours it used to take. But we don’t always see that. And so, you know, the internal risk of this that can sideline us is the stress of that, and then we stop taking risks. And the external risk of it is a perceptual one. This is sort of the person who gets considered to be kind of the worker bee. Wow, I want her on my team. Do I see her leading it? Not sure. She delegates or takes risks or decides. So that’s what I mean by it’s so successful. And so, you know, letting go of the kind of perfection in everything. So, you know, some of the ways around that might be talking to your manager or figuring out what are the things I’m going to get an A on, meaning, you know, A-level effort, and what’s going to be A, B, or A, C, and what things am I going to drop, or work with my boss to get elsewhere, so that we’re sort of prioritizing and differentiating. But it also, it comes up with, like, I don’t want to be seen asking a dumb question, instead of taking that chance, especially when you’re a student. And aren’t we all students in some way.

Mary Killelea: Oh, absolutely. How have childhood expectations played a role in shaping women's self perception and hesitation in their careers?

Ellen Taaffe: I think in a big way, and some of those things that I mentioned, those five things, I think many times those were things that we learned in childhood. You know, to be the perfect one or the good girl. Might be perfect, or it might also be pleasing others. So we get these messages. Could be from family, from school, from, you know, peers, media. And, you know, I think there are these messages that help us to think that’s what it means to be successful, that I have to be smiling for others. And so then we get to a point where later on, how do I, how do I let go of that warm, friendly personality that makes me so good on every team and all those kinds of things, but that holds us back from raising conflict or setting a boundary, because we think, incorrectly, that our relationships can’t withstand that. The other thing I would say about from childhood, you know, 70% of high school valedictorians are young women. But yet six or 7% of the Fortune 500 CEOs are, say, six to seven, because one CEO just left this week. So, like, there’s something, something happened. So I think that those behaviors really attach to goal and to academic perfection, pleasing the teacher, you know, driving that pedal to the metal, biting them all, all those things. They’re sort of sitting patiently, waiting to be noticed. Well, you get the grade, and then you get into the workforce, and there’s a lot of gray area, and there’s not a rubric. It’s not just about hard work to get the grade. There’s all this negotiation, and, you know, I think the other thing I would add is that girls relate to each other in a way of, as they’re growing up, as cooperation, and don’t act superior, because that’s not the girl code. You get ostracized if you do that. And, you know, keeping secrets, connecting with each other. Boys do much more of one-upmanship, which I’m sure is very hard for them too. But they learn to say they can do something, even with that uncertainty, but they learn how to figure it out, and it’s good for them. Like, we need a little bit more of that. But it leaves us, it leaves girls feeling like I have to be absolutely certain before I move forward, because the risks feel so high. This idea of, you know, self-promotion is really hard to do when you grew up thinking that was bad.

Mary Killelea: That is so interesting. I’ve never heard that stat around the valedictorians and the, you know, 70% young women. I think what we’re talking about, as far as childhood influence, is so impactful. And the life work is unraveling that, if you will, yeah, and not letting it get in the way, and you finding your voice within there somehow. And I think it’s great that you’ve had an executive coach. And many of the guests that I speak to, who are very successful women, enlist the help of others. And I think that’s something important for women to recognize too, is asking for help is okay.

Ellen Taaffe: I totally agree.

Mary Killelea: Okay, so self-promotion is often a challenge as well for women. Can you share your four-part framework that helps shift from thoughts to action?

Ellen Taaffe: Sure, so this is in that success strategy of performing patiently and the idea of waiting to be noticed, that I shouldn’t self-promote, because they’ll notice and they’ll reward me. And that’s just not how it works, and people will fly by you, and then squeaky will get the grease. And so my idea here, and I call it SIGN, SIGN my acronym for Stakes, Intentions, Goals, and Negotiables. Stakes are really a reflection on what you can gain or lose here. So, say for example, you want to go talk to your boss about, I want to move into a brand, or I would like a promotion, or I’m just going for an interview for something. But what’s at stake? So it’s sort of like getting to, like, what’s my mission here and why is it so important, because there’s something at stake in order to take action. So I think I'll get in touch with that. And then what’s your intention, in the sense of you’re going into a meeting with your boss or the interview or that kind of thing. How do you want to show up? So my intention here might be to be calm, but clear and very focused. And so really drawing on that, both those are really to get ready for generally a conversation. And goals are, what do I want to get out of this in the short term? So sometimes in the short term I want to, for example, I want to learn what it takes to be promoted to director. I want to, you know, just make sure maybe the goal here is I want them to know I want a longer-term career here, and I want them to know all my experiences or credentials. It’s, you know, I’m making this up, but, you know, it’s a new boss. And so what’s your goal in the short term of this specific encounter? And then what’s your goal longer term? Maybe my goal longer term is I want this person to endorse me for a move into another department, or I want to get a promotion. And then the last one is for negotiables, and this is you may get what you want, but you might not, and there’s so many things beyond the title, the role, and compensation. And it might be, I can be patient, but here’s the project that I would love to be able to work on. Can we make that work? Maybe it’s a project, or maybe it's that I don't want to get an MBA, but I want to go do executive education, or I want to go, do some sort of speaker training, or I want a coach. Many times you can negotiate for getting a coach. More and more companies are doing that. So that’s my, in part of it, I call it SIGN, because it’s like we have to send the sign to others, and it’s a way to sort of step through and be able to do that.

Mary Killelea: Feedback is crucial for growth. What are five ways you recommend to give, get, and gain feedback effectively?

Ellen Taaffe: Oh, five ways. Okay, well one of the things I talk about in the book is I refer to it as knowing the book on you, and it’s, you know, knowing how you are perceived. And I don’t mean just by your good friends, you know, internally. And I think, you know, one of the things for women is, I was just writing a post on this too, that women, research shows women get more vague feedback. And research also shows, and that’s from men and women to women, and there's also men and women giving kinder feedback. Sometimes that means they’re not being as direct as they should be. So one of the steps is you have to give permission, and I don’t mean saying those words, but I’m really trying to work on my project management skills, and creating some powerful questions that are asking for something specific. So depending on whatever you’re interested in finding out. So I really care about how I’m doing here, and I want to, I really, your input would matter a lot to me. You know, so you’re saying how important it is to you, and you’re asking and giving them permission to tell it to you. And through questions like, what’s one thing I can do better in the Monday morning whatever meeting? Or what’s one thing I can do? Because that’s a lot easier for someone to give you a specific answer than how am I doing. Now you can say, how am I tracking against your expectations for being six months in the role? Or that kind of thing. So, but powerful questions, you know. Even when you go into a new situation, two of mine that I always ask when I go in and I’m, you know, meeting with stakeholders, different people that I will work with, is what do you hope I’ll do and what do you fear I’ll do? So the more you can create questions that sort of are open-ended and get someone to hopefully you a little bit more are important. I also think another way to get good feedback is to take it in. You might need to pause, but don’t react in the moment. And I think listening with curiosity is one of the best things you can do to try to take yourself out of judgment of who’s that person to say this. So that, you know, take it in and listen with curiosity. And in that case, you know, pausing and saying, can I come back? I know I need to process this. Can I come back and ask you a little bit more? And lastly, decide what you want to act on. And because you got feedback, if it’s important to you and you think you can make, you know, some difference here, then you might want to act on it. But you don’t have to act on it either. That might be contrary advice too.

Mary Killelea: That is so awesome and that's something I don't think I've ever covered before, and I really liked you walking us through that you talk about the inner antagonist that can hinder growth. Can you share a personal experience where you face this antagonist and how you overcame it?

Ellen Taaffe: Sure, one that comes to mind is getting this TEDx talk. And I had, I had gotten feedback. The feedback was, you’re hiding your light under a bushel. And the person was right. And I ended up signing up for a storytelling class. My local suburb north of Chicago had a first-time TEDx event. I applied and I promptly was rejected and completely released. And then they called me two months later. They said we already have the speakers, but they called me two months later and said, we’re looking at our speakers and we feel like you fill this important gap and you represent academia, and can you be ready with your idea next week? So I was in a crash course. And I said yes and hung up the phone. And then I was like, what did I do? And just like here’s this thing that, like, on a bucket list kind of thing. And then I was like, who in the world, like. And then, you know, the whole litany of I’m not a real academic, I’m not tenure line, I’m a practitioner, like I’m a corporate person who did the, I’m a business person, not, you know, not an academic. That, like, just the whole list. And like, oh my God, it will be on video, what sort of the other, for the whole world to see. And do I even have an idea? So huge, and, you know, this was in 2019, so not too far from now. But a huge inner antagonist. And I, you know, I did a realistic, okay, I have talked, I teach classes, I can do this. It will help me if I get more prepared. And I had done a keynote, like a month before that, I had to take from 45 minutes to make it into like 12 to 15 minutes. I ended up calling Heroic Public Speaking and seeing if I could get in their fall training. And that’s where I met my writing teacher, and she helped me. And that’s, that’s where I got the idea of the Mirrored Door too, from preparing for that. But I, so I got myself prepared. I got, you know, people who would help me there. I talked to other people who said, you know, like these TEDx talks, yeah, some of them are Brené Brown on a stage, but most of them are like they were out of high school. Like this one was like, it’s much lower stakes. And I still, in the back of my mind, I’m not somebody who curses, but I did know that if someone curses or says something bad that they won’t put the video up. So in my secret mind, I would be like, okay, if I’m really bombing up there, I’m just going to drop some S-bombs. Then I did learn that they are able to edit on the final day, so that went out the window. But I got the support of other people, the other speakers. We would go to practice, and I wasn’t alone. They were all petrified.
So there was something about getting realistic about this that isn't as far-fetched as it felt in the moment. Getting, you know, prepared enough. Knowing there’s a lot of TEDx books and things like that help you to see that it’s about, it’s really intended to be about regular people sharing an idea. So stop thinking, you know, of the ones that are the famous ones. And then really the support of other people. But it was both a mindset and just taking action. I also learned how dependent I was on PowerPoint, which I couldn’t use, and how much I hated practicing and rehearsing. So it helped me actually be better in some of those things after doing it.

Mary Killelea: Well, I watched it prior to this interview. I thought it was very good and meaningful, such a great job and it's on my bucket list. It's one of those things that is, I mean I'm assuming it's opened up doors for you that you might not have expected. Like you were talking about your book direction.

Ellen Taaffe: Yeah, it led to some doing other keynotes, speaking, some coaching, and it led to the book. I don’t think I would have met AJ Harper, who was my writing teacher, who also, you know, heard me go on and on about something I was seeing and then say, what’s that thing, the Mirrored Door? And that really, you know, became the thing that the book, you know, became about. So that scary moment led to something really powerful. And most of all, like, I don’t, I don’t know that it’s the greatest TEDx talk, but I feel proud that I did it, and I did it, you know. One of my daughters was away at college, but the other one was in high school, and it was really meaningful for her to see me do something that was hard and scary. And, you know, I was petrified, but then I was proud. And it was important, you know, to see my husband and daughter. And, you know, I had a few people tell me I did this after, after seeing that. You know, like one person I’m now in touch with who said, I applied and got on a board.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, that's a beautiful thing.

Ellen Taaffe: Yeah, so those things mean a lot to me.

Mary Killelea: Setting boundaries is so critical so many women struggle with it. Why do you think this is and how can women overcome people pleasing behaviors in both their professional and personal?

Ellen Taaffe: Yeah. So, I think so often we have this identity of this, if we are someone who’s that eagerly pleasing, we have an identity of being very other oriented and, you know, keeping the peace, but reading people, sort of reading the room, all these wonderful good things. But what so often with that, we end up last on the list and maybe not even on the list. So it’s, it’s really an out of, out of balance kind of thing. And I think the more that we are able to see that and take little steps to create more balance between others and ourselves, and boundaries is a great way to do that. But I think what happens is we don’t realize that our relationships can withstand our disagreement, our, you know, displeasure, conflict, and us saying no. And that’s the, again, in lower stake situations where we can say no. And I, you know, in the book I share some examples of me saying no to something. It’s my mother-in-law, but she's also saying no at work too. There’s a great book called The No Club, and in it they have researched and found that women take on non promotable tasks far more than men do. And part of it is we volunteer, and part of it is we’re asked, and like we assume it of ourselves. And it’s kind of similar. It’s like the office house work that needs to get done. And it’s sort of, if we’re doing it, do it if you’re passionate about it, or do it if it’s also going to be highlighted in your performance review that you do these things too. But I think that we have to have the courage to take the risk of relationships. And honestly, if they can’t withstand our boundaries, do we, are those people?

Mary Killelea: Right. Okay, you are giving so many incredible nuggets. I'm just like I don't want this to end. So I'm gonna keep going here, with your brand management experience and all your extensive experience in branding and marketing. How do you think personal branding plays an importance in your acceleration within your career?

Ellen Taaffe: This is a hard one for me, because the term personal branding, this part of me feels like that seems manufactured or manipulated. And I think, in reality, if we do it right, it’s not. And so it starts with knowing who you are and what your strengths are, what you’re known for. And that’s hard to know, because it just comes natural for people, like whatever they’re good at. And so this is where there’s opportunity to get feedback, just like you would if you had a brand that you were marketing. You try to learn, what do people associate with that brand? What do they associate? And I think that doing that, going back to past performance reviews if you have them in writing, or asking other people in your life from different walks of your life, taking StrengthsFinder, like what are you strong at, and are you showing up fully to that? What value? So I love the reflection of who you are. And then I think the trick is, how do you show up that way? Like, are you, you know, it can be really tactical, like how are you showing up on LinkedIn in a way that reflects who you are and not just like everyone else? So I think it’s important to also understand how you are differentiated too. And I, you know, I think you can also create signature things too. Like I do go into new jobs with, here are my questions, and I ask everyone, then I share out, here’s what I’ve learned. And I teach my students to do that too, because you can do it going into a new job. Like, you can’t even believe how much you can learn from doing that. But, like, that’s part of my brand, is trying to understand other people. And I also am, I think, very determined and driven, but it sometimes surprises people because I have kind of a quieter outside to me. And the fact that I know that about myself, when I get with people in a new working relationship, I can help them to see that about me, so that they know I’m no pushover. But I also am not, like, leading, I’m not the first person in the room to say, we can do it, you know. So know yourself and show up that way. If you’re not showing up that way, maybe it’s not who you really are. But so often we feel like we have to show up in a way that other people want. And I think true personal branding is showing up the way you truly are, and having the confidence and the courage to sort of show up that way, even when maybe they were expecting something else.

Mary Killelea: That's an awesome perspective and you mentioned in there something that you teach through your leadership program. Will you talk about what you teach and who it serves?

Ellen Taaffe: Sure. So, I teach a class called personal leadership insights to MBA students, some of which are in the full-time program, totally focused on their MBA and getting their next job. And then some are in our evening week program, where they’re working full-time and going to school at night or on the weekend. And the class split, as it’s called personal leadership insights, it’s about discovering who you are, who you are in the context of others, and who you want to be. In who you are, we do things like evaluating what are your strengths? What are the flip sides to those strengths? What are your values? I have each of the students, and I participate too. We do a looking-back exercise of what about your life so far makes you who you are today. And that may be things that you have accomplished or difficulties you face. There tends to be a bit more difficulties you face, where that has given us some sort of learning or strength or something like that. And the students then go out and get feedback from three people in their life. That could be, you know, a college roommate, a cousin, and someone I used to work with. I suggest different parts of your life. And they ask them a series of questions to understand what they can be counted on for, you know, when they’re there. How do they show up? Where might they get in their own way? There is a series. They create what the questions are, but they’re open-ended questions. And then they look at the feedback together, and maybe along with other feedback they got along the way. So they take that who they are, who they are in the context of others, and how that is sort of integrated to, in general, who they are and how they show up. Because we believe that the best leaders know the impact they have on others. They know themselves. They know what made them who they are, and they know that impact. And they’re vulnerable about this too. So they put this together in a leadership profile. And then they create a vision for the future. And they get to choose a minimum of 10 years out, but it might be 30 years from now. They share a vision with the class, and it can be full of my, you know, four kids, or my grandkids, and I’m living in a cabin in Colorado. I usually insert that Florida Gators won a couple national championships, you know. So it’s all kinds of, like, fun things. But it is, I was an owner, or I left this business after 20 years and started my own nonprofit. Or it’s these things that, by doing this kind of fun exercise, you figure out what do you really want in your future? What is, you know, part of its made-up stuff, but there’s something that calls to you about that. And it’s generally about the kind of thing that you want to accomplish. And also the relationships you want. And, you know, people get into, like, we have a huge dining table and every Friday night neighbors come over. And there’s something about that that’s important. Or I have run this company and I, you know, have employed hundreds of people. Or whatever those kinds of things are. And then we have them do a development plan of, in the next 90 to 120 days, what can you do to start to get to that? And that could be anything about your health, about your career, about relationships, things like that. And then the last part of the class is, we’ve shared a lot over these 10 weeks, and the last part is everyone gets acknowledged by their classmates. People are pretty shocked that, through these exercises, people that they didn’t know see things in them that really make you feel pretty wonderful.

Mary Killelea: Sounds like an amazing experience.

Ellen Taaffe: It is a class I wish they had when I was at Kellogg and as soon as I heard about it, it's some of the I also coach the students outside of class. So it's work that I feel like I've done in some ways and it's really powerful. You know, it's why I so believe in coaches too.

Mary Killelea: Your face lights up when you talk about it. I love it!

Ellen Taaffe: Yeah

Marry Killelea: What would you tell your 20-year-old self?

Ellen Taaffe: Oh, I would say, have courage, have courage. I mean, I am a big believer. I was sort of always searching for confidence. I know now what the prerequisite is. It is courage, and confidence is the outcome. And I do think, like all my moves that ended up, most of them worked out, but not all of them, but I’ve learned something from each one. It all always took courage. And I didn’t always have the confidence. I didn’t always show that, but I did have courage. So I wish I knew that early on. And I would say the other thing is to run your own race. You know, I was in sales for a while. It’s kind of what other people thought I would be good at. And I think it’s really important to figure out what you want.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, well you certainly have exemplified being bolder in your career. What does to be bolder mean to you?

Ellen Taaffe: All about courage. Just, you know, small steps lead to big steps, big bold steps. I also would just say, go big and bold now to give yourself options later. You don’t know, like, what life will serve you, and it’s great to be able to make choices based on what happened earlier, like, oh okay, I don’t want to do that, or I can do this. And it gives you a lot more choice to go big and bold early, and it gives you the courage to go bold later too.

Mary Killelea: That's fantastic. Okay, that's fantastic but before I let you go there is a little fun thing I like to do, it’s called the rapid fire series. I'm going to hit you with them, waffles or pancakes?

Ellen Taaffe: Pancakes.

Mary Killela: Comedy or drama?

Ellen Taaffe: Drama.

Mary Killelea: Fiction or non-fiction?

Ellen Taaffe: Oh, both. I do a lot of both on that. Right now, I'm probably more into non-fiction.

Mary Killelea: Cooking at home or eating out?

Ellen Taaffe: Eating out.

Mary Killelea: Coffee or tea?

Ellen Taaffe: Coffee.

Mary Killelea: Pasta or pizza?

Ellen Taaffe: Pizza.

Mary Killelea: Wine or cocktail?

Ellen Taaffe: Wine.

Mary Killelea: Thank you for playing my fun little game and thank you so much for being on the show. You have really offered so many great insights today and I know that it's gonna be of high value for the listeners. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Ellen Taaffe: Thank you so much for having me, Mary. It's just a wonderful conversation.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guest. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com, that's the number 2little b bolder.com.