Career Growth Advice from Espree Devora, business Leader | Career Tips for Women in business

2B Bolder Podcast – Episode 94
Featuring Espree Devora

Episode Title: #94 Tech Trailblazers: Espree Devora on Entrepreneurship and Empowering Women in Tech

Host: Mary Killelea
Guest: Espree Devora



Mary Killelea (Host): Hi there. My name is Mary Killelea. Welcome to the To Be Bolder podcast, providing career insights for the next generation of women in business and tech. To Be Bolder was created out of my love for technology and marketing, my desire to bring together like-minded women, and my hope to be a great role model and source of inspiration for my two girls and other young women like you, encouraging you guys to show up and to be bolder and to know that anything you guys dream of, it's totally possible. So, sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation.

Hello. Welcome back to another exciting episode. Today, we have a guest who's not just a force in the podcasting world, but a bold leader in the LA tech scene. She's been called the girl who gets it done. And when you hear her credentials, you'll understand why. Since 2013, Espree Devora has been a prolific podcaster and her influence does not stop there. She's the brain behind We Are LA Tech, a platform that has been a beacon for the LA tech community. Espree doesn't just champion tech in LA, she's been a global advocate for women in tech. And if you're into live audio creator community, you might recognize her as a founding member of the audio collective.

Now, if you're thinking, okay, wow, that's impressive. Hold on, because there's more. Espree has been spotlighted by Forbes, Entrepreneur, Harper Bazaar, Inc., and the list goes on. Inc. Magazine even listed her as one of the top 30 women in tech to follow. And if you're on Clubhouse, you might have seen her face as one of the app icons. I was so excited when I joined Clubhouse. I saw you there and I was like, oh my God, yay!

Espree Devora (Guest): Oh, no way! That's so cool.

Mary Killelea: With over a thousand podcast episodes under her belt, Esprit likens podcasting to painting audio, which I love that quote. Her entrepreneurial spirit sparked in college, leading her to found Zex Sports. Am I pronouncing that right?

Espree Devora: Yeah, Zex Sports. It's the opposite of Virgin. Richard Branson was my idol at the time.

Mary Killelea: Oh, that's cool. Which is an action sports media network. And then you have something for the startup looking for software recommendation. It's your blog, savebusinesstime.com, which I went on and it's the gold mine. It's really cool with all the time saving tips that you have there. Espree, it's an absolute honor to have you here. Not only have you achieved so much, but literally you have been one of my personal inspirations for starting my own podcast. So, when I reached out and you said yes, I was like, I was driving down a road and my husband and I were coming back from somewhere. I said, oh my God, you will not believe who just said yes to be on my show.

Espree Devora: Stop. That's so sweet. I'm like a dorky girl in the corner. That's so sweet. Awesome.

Mary Killelea: Because I was listening to one of your shows and I'm like, gosh, I'm going to just go reach out to her. I'm just going to see it, but she'll come on. Yeah, you should do it. Right? Okay.

Espree Devora: So, my mom says if you don't ask, you don't receive.

Mary Killelea: My dad used to say, it's always a no until you ask.

Espree Devora: Right? Yeah. Love. It's always a no until you ask. That's a good one. Yeah.

Mary Killelea: Okay. So my show is called To Be Bolder. What does To Be Bolder mean to you?

Espree Devora: It means truly trusting your intuition to make the choices that feel in alignment with you, no matter of what society or your perception is telling you what should be, but going after your authentic truth of what is right within your heart.

Mary Killelea: I love that. I love it. You started your first company in college. What inspired you to be in entrepreneurship and just thinking that you can? And where did that come from?

Espree Devora: When I was growing up, my father and my godfather would have all their business meetings and my dad had a home office. And so I got to play on my dad's computer. And so I just had a lot of business around me growing up. And so, I was just really inspired from an early age to be a business owner one day. I used to dream up of all the businesses that I would put into the empty office buildings as my dad and I would walk to the movies. And yeah, so it really started when I was a little girl.

Mary Killelea: And once you're an entrepreneur, do you think you can ever shake that?

Espree Devora: I tried because being an entrepreneur always made my mom really nervous. And in general, I just noticed I would make my godfather nervous. My family got nervous about me. I mean, I got nervous about me. So, there was one point where I tried to force myself to be quote unquote normal. And it was really interesting. I would cry all the time, and it was weird because I wasn't sad about anything. And I'm like, why am I always crying? What is wrong with me? And later, I recognized that the reason my body was probably having that physical reaction was because I wasn't living in alignment with what I really wanted to be doing with my life. I was doing something that wasn't true to me. And so yeah, I have always wanted to be an entrepreneur. It's very difficult or I not wanted to be. I feel like I was born an entrepreneur. I have tried not to be an entrepreneur. I'm just born to be an entrepreneur. It's how my brain functions. So yeah, but it's not an easy life.

And I also don't think people should villainize the nine to five. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Everybody needs to like chill out. Like there's nothing wrong with the 9-5. We were talking about doing video with podcasts. I don't do video with podcasts. Like, do you know, there's even a recent conversation that a lot of audio podcasters went all in on video because they felt the pressure and it did not make an impact on their numbers over the years. So, they've been doing all this extra work and it didn't even make it then.

Mary Killelea: Well, I'm glad I'm being real and just knew what my limits were.

Espree Devora: Yeah, that's the thing. I believe the greatest anchor of success is our joy, like our joy-o-meter. And are we enjoying our life? Are we enjoying how we're spending our time? Are we spending our time with the people we want to be spending our time with? All these other like societal expectations, just whatever. Not bold.

Mary Killelea: Opposite of bold. Okay, as the founder of We Are LA Tech and the global advocate that you are for women in tech, what are unique challenges that you see facing women today?

Espree Devora: I'll answer that in a question that really, in a way that really resonates with me is the, and I don't know if it's necessarily unique, but the challenge that I face is making sure I'm okay too. When you're a person who is a natural heart-driven leader and a giver and a community builder and a protector and a nourisher, we usually like forget we need to be okay too. So, I find the greatest challenge in my business building journey is to make sure that I'm okay, to make sure that I'm giving myself permission to be okay, to make sure that I'm checking in with myself because I am really apt to like self-sacrifice and be there for someone else before I am there for me. And that goes from everything from like pricing to time to everything.

I did a podcast interview yesterday and one of the things that came up was this correlation between, that I feel that there's a correlation between self-worth and pricing. So if we have lower self-worth, and I've definitely been self-worth challenged, that our pricing or the partner, romantic partners we pick is a reflection of our self-worth. This is in my case, I'm like, I could tell the kind of people I've dated by how much I loved myself. So yeah, so I think both living a self-sustaining, nourishing life, like allowing a space for that, as well as making sure that we're not pricing because we have self-limiting beliefs. And I think a lot of caring people will give things away for free or whatever because we're afraid to charge.

Mary Killelea: Did you hit a rock bottom spot in your career journey where you're like, okay, I overextended, I'm at burnout?

Espree Devora: Yeah, so many times. And when I burn out, it's like I can't, I can no longer do what I love because I can't even function. So many times, one time I overworked myself or I couldn't walk for five months because the stress, I feel like the universe took me out because I wouldn't take me out. And so that was a five-month healing process. I was just in intense pain whenever I walked. I'm very grateful that I don't have to go through that anymore. And I'm constantly, when I feel like I'm pushing too hard, I'm like, nope, universe, I'm good. I'm stopping. Like I'm going to go sleep the eight hours. I'm going to go eat healthy. You don't have to take me out this time. I got you. I got the memo.

So there's been several times where I've overworked myself and the pain of overworking myself is now really, I don't know if the right word is force, but it's put it at the forefront that I am unwilling to self-sacrifice to serve. Like I need to be okay. And who I'm serving needs to be delivered excellence. It needs to be both or none. Yeah, you've experienced both or me. Sorry, it needs to be both or like the business just will cease to exist and I'll do something else. You know what I mean?

Mary Killelea: Right, right. You've experienced the consequences, and the consequences woke you up.

Espree Devora: Yeah. Yeah.

Mary Killelea: Okay. So you have, I'm coming up on a hundred podcasts. You have a thousand podcasts that you've done. What's some of the biggest lessons or transformative lessons that you kind of take away from interviews and your thousand episodes?

Espree Devora: You know, I candidly, I don't take a lot away from interviews most of the time, probably because I do so many that it's hard to retain everything because I'm constantly moving. The reason why I do so many is because my mission is to celebrate as many people as possible. I am doing it to, in a place of service, not for myself. And so, when I'm absorbing so much information, definitely present in the moment, but the second it's done, I have to prepare for the next interview. And when I'm interviewing 15 people a day or something like that, it makes it really difficult to know what happened in interview number one. And by interview number 15, I need, I'm like, my head is in the back. You know, my eyes are in the back of my head and I'm about to pass out, you know?

And so I'd say out of all the interviews, one that really stood with me was Arlen Hamilton, who's an investor. And the reason that one really stood with me is because I was so intimidated interviewing her and I don't get intimidated very often. And like, I can be Brad Pitt right now, I'd be like, Hey, man, what's up? Or whatever, you know? But I was she's such a force. And I asked her about the haters. I was like, how do you deal with the haters? She's like, everyone needs a job. Their jobs to hate. And I was like, wow, she's like, if they're not in my inner circle, their opinion doesn't matter. I'm like, that's an interesting way.

Because I think something I've done in my career is I've held myself back because I'm afraid of like, haters and afraid. I also don't seek out fame. And so, I just don't want that kind of negativity in my life. And so, I was really curious about that. But yeah, I've interviewed so many incredible people. It's more about the magic that I've created in their lives more than the that makes me that gives me like, extra dazzle than like listening to the conversation.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, I can totally relate to that. Because I don't think I've ever articulated it like you did with your place of you're driven by service, which I love. And I think that's why you're so successful, because it does come through. And that's kind of how I've shaped this. Because I’m at more of my later part of my career, but I want the younger women to have the advantage to accelerate to have access to women that I didn't have. So I love that. Okay, tell me about Zex Sports and save business time.com.

Espree Devora: I mean, they're two totally separate things. So right, I feel it was my action sports media network that really created my identity, like it was the most rock star amazing startup. And I'm so glad I was able to have that life journey before startups were cool, because it was like extra rogue and just absolutely incredible life journey. And I don't think you could have that life journey today, because now startups are so popularized, like back then, like finding an engineer, like I had to like hunt, you know, it was just cool. It was like before WordPress. And you know, it was just really before Shopify, all these things, you know.

Mary Killelea: you can't go on Fiverr and say…

Espree Devora: I remember discovering Fiverr when it just first launched. Actually, fun fact, my podcast editor, and I, well, now he's our lead editor. He and I initially connected via Fiverr. Now, for years, I've paid him directly, of course, higher than the five bucks. But when we started working, it was like 10 bucks an episode or something. He was just because he loved it. And then we formed a great relationship and he became like my guy and we've worked together all these years. So, he he's amazing. But yeah, and then save business time, I just have this weird obsession with software. And so I just like love software. So, save business time is my, my blog where it's like my findings and my friends findings of different software. That's really cool to save us time.

Mary Killelea: As an entrepreneur, are you constantly always looking at ways to monetize things? Or improve things?

Espree Devora: I wish. That would make things better. I do I'm constantly looking for more ways to love. It's part of that sounds beautiful. It's also a weakness, I should be looking for more ways to monetize if I had a co founder. So if I don't want a co founder, but if I had one, probably that should be their driver. However, I'm concerned with someone who has a driver like that, are they going to compromise the loveliness that I'm doing? So that's always concerned me. A lot of people, my good friends have been like, Oh, get a founder that's money motivated. I'm like, yeah, but like, they're going to make decisions that don't have the ethos that I'm after. So no, I'm not always looking for ways to monetize. However, I am now always looking to make sure that how I'm executing my time is within my boundaries and financially sustainable.

Mary Killelea: Harper Bazaar listed your podcast in the top 10 to listen to. What do you believe sets your podcast apart and who has been your biggest inspiration in the podcasting world?

Espree Devora: Wow. I'm very, I'm currently inspired by Stephen Bartlett. Bartlett, I never know how to pronounce, I always wish it was the same. Diary of a CEO, Alexandra Cooper with Call Her Daddy. I'm just so wowed by their interview abilities. Danny Miranda has impeccable interviewing, the Danny Miranda show, impeccable interviewing abilities. So those are the podcasters that inspire me. And what was the other question?

Mary Killelea: What sets your –

Espree Devora: Oh, sets women in tech and we are like tech apart? I mean, if you're interested in resources available to women in tech, so it's not really like what sets them apart. It's just if you're a person interested in resources for women in tech, then you should be listening to the Women in Tech podcast because you'll pick up stories from women around the world and then gain resources that you could apply yourself. If you're interested in moving to LA or getting to LA, knowing the community or immersing yourself in the community, we are like tech podcast is a really effective way to do that.

Do I think my two podcasts are like the end all be alls of that's how you should spend your time? No, not necessarily. Like if I had an hour right now and to live or die in LA came out with a new episode, I would 100% be listening to that. So, like you should just listen and consume what is valuable to you with where you are in your life.

Mary Killelea: Yeah. You're a journalist for Tech Zula. You reported on the growth of startups and YouTube. What trends do you see emerging that like women should be taking advantage of?

Espree Devora: I mean, everybody is talking way too much about AI. I mean, that is the known trend right now. So I like to say that now that AI is like super boosting and I'm not convinced yet that it's not just the new NFT, but like now that AI is super boosting, I feel like the new differentiator is being human because if I get one more message from someone that was written by a robot, it's like I can tell, and maybe like a few years in now you won't be able to tell. Fine. But right now, you could still tell. And I think being a human and handling relationships with humanness is a really big differentiator. And how easy is that? Just show up, be kind, care.

Mary Killelea: I totally agree with that. And I think, you know, the disclosures on ads and stuff that are written by humans is going to be funny to see.

Espree Devora: Oh yeah.

Mary Killelea: But I think it helps the small shops, you know, the single entrepreneur that is spread so thin that you have this assistant who can do things for you to accelerate your time in a better way.

Espree Devora: I completely understand the pain point. I think there's multiple ways to be effective at getting a lot of content out there. And I do think that, you know, these tech companies have successfully trapped us in having to be these like media content producing machines and it's unreasonable. One of the educators, and I'm not into a lot of educators, I'm actually quite selective about who I like and admire because I think a lot of people are taking advantage of other people's insecurities. Someone I really do respect and admire is Justin Welsh. He has something called, I think it's called the Content OS. It's pretty much like how he creates all of his business content across all his platforms with ease. And his product is 150 bucks. He's not going to raise it. It's not 150 bucks because he has low self-worth. He intentionally charges 150 bucks because he wants it to be accessible and he's cool with the price.

And yeah, so I think more so than chat GPT is having a system in place and a workflow in place. Like Friday is my production day. So that's why like we're doing this interview on a Friday. Any other kind of content creation is on a Friday. And then creating my systems of like, okay, here's where I post, here's how I'm posting. And I think Justin Welsh's product can really help with that. But yes, I understand the pain point and it is highly unreasonable that what the digital age expectations are of a human being.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, no, it is very overwhelming.

Espree Devora: Completely. I agree.

Mary Killelea: Yeah. But okay, let's talk about the creator economy and how liberating is that for this new generation to be able to accelerate their growth through experiencing and doing versus going the traditional older route where you apply, get a job, you climb the ladder once.

Espree Devora: Totally. I think there's pros and cons to both. Going into the creator business is a lot. If the creator business was the end all be all, then all those YouTubers with millions of subscribers who produce content who are really popular would still be doing their channels. But they left. A lot of people leave because there's a lot of downsides that aren't popularized that people don't talk about as often.

I think a lot of the creator business sometimes involves fame. And if you're not looking to be famous, how does that work? And a lot of people maybe in this day and age are looking to be famous. And that's a whole other set of values and why and what's it mean to you and what do you think you're going to get from the attention? I think there's a ton of ways to be successful. And I don't think that having a creator business is automatically freeing just only because yes, you don't have the same type of gatekeepers, but now you have a whole different set of challenges. So, it's kind of like, pick your own path. It's like, which adventure do you want to go on? And whether it's a job or it's a creator business or it's opening a restaurant or whatever, it's like whatever you want to explore in this life, explore it. And in between while you're trying to figure it out, make the means you need to make to survive and don't be beneath anything.

So I was a dishwasher, I was a waitress, I was a personal assistant. I was a fucking great personal assistant. It's probably what helped me in my entrepreneurial career later on. And so really just decide what adventure would you like to go on?

There's this saying, consider the possibility. So just consider the possibility that anything can happen. And so, if you consider the possibility that you could be successful at something, you might say, I want to do YouTube, but I don't have enough money for a camera or this and that. Well, go work at a coffee shop. Go work whatever you need to do and know what your goals are in each chapter and just see what you see. Some things I know I keep bringing up Justin Welsh, but I just really like him. And so, I've been reading his stuff lately. And one of the things he said is like, look, it took him, I think it was like over four years to get to where he is today. So, he says, don't look at me and think you could just do these things. It wasn't easy. There's a lot of opportunities involved. I could tell by some of the people that he's even associated with, that I was like, yeah, it was that person that you did that thing with and gave you the boost that you needed. And that's part of the all boys club. What I like about him is he's very integrity driven in his communication and humble about it. Like he calls himself out. He's like, I am aware that I have that.

So, is it freeing that there's these more paths? It's just there's more adventures to choose from, but they all have pros and cons. You could work as a job, a salary job at a cool startup. Like think about the receptionist at Uber, you know what I mean?

Mary Killelea: Let's talk about, you mentioned the boys club and I felt it strongly when I had my own business and it was frustrating. I always felt like, it was frustrating.

Espree Devora: Yeah.

Mary Killelea: How do women who feel they're dealing with a boys club not have that track run in their head and break down that to create their own sisterhood? You know what I mean?

Espree Devora: It's like, yeah, I mean, when I was starting my career, I wasn't aware that there was a boys club or girls club or any kind of club. I just was doing my thing. And I didn't become aware of this kind of stuff until later on. And it's really heavy now because these guys with their Twitter posting is like out of control. But I think it's important to be caught up in someone's character, not in their gender, their demographics, their geography, but their character. And some people have poor character and some people have great character. And all you could do is ask.

So, as we talked about earlier, your dad, my mom, if you don't ask, you don't receive. So, if you see someone out there and you want them to champion you, don't wait for them to say, hey, I'm going to champion you. Don't wait. Go ask. Say, I would love you to elevate me. In the past few months, on the other side of things, I had a guy steal my work. It's not the first time. It's actually either the third or fourth time that something like this has happened over the years. But I had a guy steal my work. I'm sure he didn't think I'd ever find out. Because I found out really randomly. It was like I was meant to find out because the chances that I were to find it were so small. And it was that less than 1%. I was like, oh man. And I just messaged him. I was like, so was I credited in that? And I called it out. And then good on him that he took accountability in the sense he said no. And then he also said, I will next time. You have to ask my permission to use my work. But what I said to him, I wasn't nasty at all. I said, it's really important that men empower women. We need you as a community to elevate us. And so, it was like telling him off without telling him off.

Mary Killelea: Right, right. And teach him a lesson for that. How did he respond? Please tell me he said, I get it.

Espree Devora: I don't even remember. It didn't even matter. He didn't respond with hostility. He probably didn't know what to do with himself because he didn't think he'd ever get caught. Oh, and then what I did is I made sure to plaster that particular thing that he stole everywhere with my name. I posted it everywhere. And now I'm having a talk with, I'm not going to say which company, but I'm having a talk with a huge tech company. I'm creating the course named exactly like that. Just to incorporate, don't mess with me.

Mary Killelea: I love it.

Espree Devora: That all boys club, I'm going to stay very vague on this one, but I had a woman steal everything too. And with the woman I reached out, I was like, okay, it's very clear. You and I both know you stole all my stuff. It's extremely clear. Wow, she was the B word. She was nasty, nasty about it. And she even still posts negative things, not with my name, but I could see the passive aggressive stuff. Her work is directed toward me. And I'm like, our work is about elevating women. What are you doing? Why would you do that? But anyway, so the point of me saying all of this is don't get caught up in other people's stuff. Just do your thing, ask for what you need, judge people by their character, stay away from douche bags.

Mary Killelea: And I wish I would have had this conversation with you like, I don't know, 15 years ago. It wouldn't save me some headaches. Okay, so you spoke on diverse platforms from South by Southwest to keynoting with Richard Branson. And you say you're an introvert with extrovert capabilities. How do you prepare for such engagements of, you know, that stature and visibility?

Espree Devora: Yeah, well, with speaking engagements, I feel like I'm going to puke every single time, it never goes away. Someone told me once that it means that I really care. So if I ever stopped feeling nervous, that would be the issue. I'm like, great, like this feels so physically uncomfortable. I don't know how I prepare because I freak out for we like, for like two weeks before the thing, like I have a speaking engagement coming up in October. It's gonna be like, I just know it's like, I'm gonna freak out. But then the second I get on stage, it just, it's like Sasha Fierce from Beyonce, I have the other alter ego that just takes over the stage. And she's like, awesome and held together. And I get off the stage. I'm like, Oh, my God, did I do okay?

Mary Killelea: You don't remember like anything from it.

Espree Devora: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how I prepare. Didn't you say you admired Richard Branson? I used to when I early in my career, I used to think he was like, super cool. So I named my company opposite of him and like ode to him. Yeah.

Mary Killelea: Yeah. I think that's that's great. I mean, that's like, throughout your career, when you have those aha moments, or I guess what was your aha moments when you like, I named this after him, and now I'm doing a keynote with him.

Espree Devora: I mean, so that's trippy. Like, that's really, like, super weird. I've seen him multiple times in my career, like, we've crossed paths in different ways. And they've all been these significant moments. Like there was one time, I made an introduction to two people creating an event. And because I made this introduction, it led to Richard Branson being at their event. And because I was there, they sat me next to him. But it was during a chapter in my life where I was like, I don't need anyone. No one can catapult me. So, I literally didn't talk to him. I'm such an idiot. Like, I just didn't talk to him because I was like, I'm, I don't need anyone, you know, so stupid. So there was that time.

There was a time in Miami where I snuck into like a business conference. And I gave him like, I asked him a question. And I said, What's your favorite book? He said this Saint, the surfer and the CEO. He's like, what's and I've read it since. And he said, what's yours? I said the alchemist. And then I even created a package without he hadn't read it with alchemist. And like, like, I tried to get it to him. And it's super weird, just these random crossings. I think it's kind of like a side note doesn't have to do exactly with what we're talking about. But sort of in my mom also says, like, every no is one step closer to a yes. And so I feel like this is one of my like, I, with the Richard Branson crossings, like, he didn't get the book, like, maybe that's a version of a no, but like, my life continues on. And then eventually, I have this keynote with him. And so and there's the yes, you know, so it's just like, get the no out of the way to get to the yes, you know, in every if you're going through sponsorship outreach as a creator, if you want to speak at a conference, if I read a thing of one of the astronauts applied eight or nine times, you know, they got rejected so many times with their like, I want to be an astronaut. And so and I think you can only apply every few years or something. It was wild when I read that. So yeah, yeah, it's a trippy moment to get to with all that I've been through in my career and how pivotal how well not pivotal how much I like was in awe of them early on.

Mary Killelea: What are you most proud of that you've done so far? I'm proud of who I am.

Espree Devora: Mm hmm. And the choices that I make, because I make integrity driven choices rather than capitalistic choices, even though it may hurt me sometimes, I always choose integrity. And I think that's very difficult. And I'm proud of myself that that's who I am. And answering the question in a slightly different way that the part that I feel like has made my life like so full is backpacking the world, like in interviewing women in tech around the world. So that's the that's I don't know if the word is proud, but that's the best part of my life. And then the proudest part is like how I show up.

Mary Killelea: That's beautiful. Where in the world is the most remarkable place you've ever been?

Espree Devora: Oh, my God. So so many like I love so many. The only one I didn't really care for was Brussels in Belgium. And I don't really like Paris anymore. But I lived in Paris and I liked it when I was first there. But I don't like it anymore. However, my fave like if I had a family to like RV and stuff, New Zealand just blows my mind the north and South Island. I just but I like hiking. I like nature. If you don't like nature and hiking, you'd be like this sucks. If you want it like a disco and party, forget it. Go somewhere else. I love like lakes and nature and ocean and all the stuff like birds and vegetables and greenery and like hiking and using my body and oh, it was just the best.

Mary Killelea: With all your interviews in that journey around the world. What was there a common theme that you saw a thread throughout all the women despite where they were?

Espree Devora: Yeah, it's weird. It's like, as a culture, we kind of feel like we're not enough. Did you see that Whitney Houston thing where even at the height of her career, she thought she wasn't enough?

Mary Killelea: Yeah, amazing.

Espree Devora: Like if Whitney Houston doesn't feel like she's enough at the height of her career with that voice. There's no hope for the rest of us.

Mary Killelea: Yeah. And I don't know if it's just the women the way we're raised as little girls. You know, like, be quiet, don't disrupt, all that. Hopefully that's changing. But I kind of think that some of it goes down to the way we're raised. And not ill intentioned in any way. I think it's just, you know, from generation to generation.

Espree Devora: Yeah. It was like at all levels, whether it's like an intern level or an executive or someone who had their company acquired. It's like, do you think I have anything to offer on your show? I'm like, what? Or like my accent. I get that a lot. Like, I'm worried people won't understand my accent. And I was like, no, you just speak a little slower. Like, you know, it's just like crazy. It's wild. I'm not enough.

Mary Killelea: You're so refreshingly real. I love this. What drives you?

Espree Devora: So I'm not I'm not religious. But I, I believe in something, I don't know exactly what I believe in. But what drives me is whatever exists beyond here, I want to get a good rating. And I'm not religious. I don't know exactly what that means to me. But I want to like be like, I did a good job, right? So that really drives me. It's why like, if I hit a car and no one's looking like, when you park and you might bump up, I'll leave the note, or like, I'll do the thing. I'll take accountability. I think like I left a chair in the wrong place yesterday. And I was like, I need to contact them to let them know I left the chair there, like, I just want to know that whoever's reading me later is going to be like, yep, you did it. Check, you get to go to the good place or wherever, you know?

Mary Killelea: What keeps you up at night?

Espree Devora: My family's well being.

Mary Killelea: What's next for you? Do you set yourself goals like three to five years or have you throughout your career?

Espree Devora: So, I think I did earlier, I don't anymore. I really just believe in am I enjoying life today? It's all about the present moment. I don't really have like I could care less. Who knows what's next year? I just it's like, am I enjoying my life? Do I feel good about how I'm living? Am I enjoying my life? Do I feel good about how I'm living? Is what would I like to be doing? Am I living in a way where my time is built with the lifestyle of how I want? Because like, if you build a huge company like Stephen Barlett, who I like, totally admire, do I want his life? 0% like, why? Because he has all this way. He has like a billion employees at this place, at this place. Maybe he has a ton of cash. Maybe he has like an amazing interviewing ability. But that guy's responsibility level is like so much and I rather just like backpack and spend quality time with friends, maybe have a little downtime, do these hikes, he doesn't have capacity for things like that. So I want to build my life and my lifestyle to match what I enjoy and what makes me feel full.

Mary Killelea: What you're describing is so I mean, it's your reality, but it's also seems very idealistic, like, for the people who are trying to hustle to pay the bills to do, you know, yeah, climb the ladder to get the career promotion, whatever. What advice do you have for them to calm themselves to potentially be able to be more in this bliss that you seem to be in?

Espree Devora: Because I don't get me wrong, I'm not in I'm not in a bliss state. I, but you asked, do I have a five year plan? And so it's not that I'm in a bliss state. It's that I do bliss audits every day, you know. And so, if I were in a job that I didn't like, yeah, there's a few options. One, I would leave the job. Let's say I had kids or some sort of like really intense responsibility where I can't leave it because I have to provide, I would just be really honest, like, okay, what are we spending as a family? Like, what is the breakdown? What is it that I would like to be doing? Is there what's my time, like expenditure? Is there a way I could start to dip my toes in the thing that I actually want to be doing while I'm doing the job I don't like, because I understand I have to do the job I don't like in order to pay the thing for the kids.

But like, if I'm giving up my entire existence for the job I don't like without exploring everything else, that's my choice. Like, you're not in, like, you weren't dealt a bad pack of cards. You're just making choices that are leading you down a path. So if you want a new path, you got to make new choices, you know. And so that we all have different things we could work within money resource, time resource, geography resource, education resource, education meaning, let's say you're like, I want a career in AI and you know nothing about AI. YouTube is free. Go watch every single YouTube video possible and teach yourself about AI.

I heard, so funny, it's gonna be the third time I'm bringing up Justin Welsh. I must just be listening to a lot of his content in the last few days. But like, he talks about this SEO guy, 25 years old, who knew nothing about SEO, never worked for an SEO company, taught himself SEO all on his own, and built up companies having multi-million site visitors and sold them off all self-educated. So, like, if we want a career path, all we do is we start with whatever reserve we have, or we shift things around to make a reserve. Everything's a choice.

Mary Killelea: 100% agree and that is truth. Yeah. It just really is that simple.

Espree Devora: The most important thing that we all have is our health, period. And like, like my life is, nobody's life is bliss. And that's the part that really pisses me off about this like course creator economy, is that they project this like, I have all the answers, I'm perfect. And I'm like, no, you fucking don't. Sorry, I don't know if it's okay.

Mary Killelea: No, that's totally fine.

Espree Devora: No, you don't. And so I want people to more believe in themselves. Yeah. Than to believe someone else has all the answers or someone else is living some sort of perfect life. I mean, to make it like really vulnerable. My godfather is like my second father's in the hospital right now. I found out last night. My mom, like had a really terrible thing happen. Luckily, she's being recovered. So I've been dealing with that. My life is not bliss. So maybe if you're looking at like, a news feature, like, let's say I'll be featured on Forbes, and you're like, Oh, she has it all figured out. You don't see that I'm anxious all day long, because I'm trying to make sure that my mom's okay that I became an overnight caretaker. Nobody's life is 100%.

And most of that, and I'm not even one of those people that tries to only project perfection online. If you go to my Instagram right now, you'll see a little clip I'm like working out and I wrote, I just got terrible news. It's either this or donuts, and so like, nobody's life is perfect. So we need to stop degrading our value and our confidence in cells because we're looking at a social media post, or like somebody's alleged prestige, thinking that they have it all figured out, like even people with a ton of cash in the bank, then maybe have a failing marriage or so. And or maybe someone does have a perfect life, and that is awesome for them. But like, just we need to live in our own worlds and do our own self audits of bliss and joy, rather than the comparison game.

Mary Killelea: Totally agree. And I can't tell you how fun it's been to like get to talk to someone who I have admired. And also, I saw you and what you were doing with women in tech, and I was like, that's good stuff. I want to do that.

Espree Devora: That's awesome.

Mary Killelea: I'm going to leave you with a few more questions. Just fun.

Espree Devora: Sure.

Mary Killelea: Okay. Waffle or pancakes?

Espree Devora: Waffles.

Mary Killelea: Comedy or drama?

Espree Devora: Comedy.

Mary Killelea: Fiction or nonfiction?

Espree Devora: Nonfiction.

Mary Killelea: Yeah, me too. Cook at home or eat out?

Espree Devora: Cook at home.

Mary Killelea: Mountains or beach?

Espree Devora: Mountain. Oh, shit. Tie. Tie. It has to tie. I mean, if I had to find mountains, but no, it's a tie.

Mary Killelea: Cats or dogs?

Espree Devora: Had cats like dogs, but I like cats too. But yeah, I mean, I love dogs, but I've only had cats. Cats.

Mary Killelea: Chocolate or vanilla?

Espree Devora: The cool vanilla with the little speckles. What's it called? I forget. Is it French vanilla? I don't remember. The one with the speckles.

Mary Killelea: The one with the speckles. Okay. Summer or winter?

Espree Devora: I like both. Winter maybe. I like summer too. I don't know. I went to Kazakhstan when it was below freezing and I loved it. So I don't know. I like both. Tie. Am I allowed to say it?

Mary Killelea: Tie. Thank you for being here. I really enjoyed it.

Espree Devora: I enjoyed it too. Thank you so much for the opportunity. I appreciate you.

Mary Killelea: Thanks for listening to the episode today. It was really fun chatting with my guests. If you liked our show, please like it and share it with your friends. If you want to learn what we're up to, please go check out our website at 2bbolder.com. That's the number 2, little b, bolder.com.